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StylinLP		#241	[-]
Posts: 46 (10/28/08 13:41:03) Ghoul Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Oh ok, I see now. You guys are ahead of me on the idea. Yeah, just like Pathfinder but for 1e/4e sounds interesting. I'm more interested in 1e but hey, as long as it's not that monsterousity 3.5e I really like your Judges Guild world idea with it's own rule set. I beleive Judges Guild of old was like that. I remember converting Tegal Manor to 1e back in 1980 or so... Judges Guild modules dripped flavour. yum.
Q1000		#242	[-]
Posts: 1171 (10/29/08 05:46:33) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Judges Guild created the universal system for later modules, and had there own bare bones RPG system as well. A lot depends on this special idea Orcus has in mind. Ken
leadjunkie		#243	[-]
Posts: 1809 (10/29/08 19:06:33) Necromancer Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Q1000 wrote: Judges Guild ... had there own bare bones RPG system as well. Really? I am an avid JG collector and have almost everything they ever published. For most items I have every edition/printing. I have never seen nor heard of a RPG system. Can you clue me in? Aspiring Killer DM 221 "4rons vs 3tards debate!" - Bowbe (Put me in the 3tards camp)
TheRavyn		#244	[-]
Posts: 1512 (10/30/08 03:40:05) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	leadjunkie wrote: Q1000 wrote: Judges Guild ... had there own bare bones RPG system as well. Really? I am an avid JG collector and have almost everything they ever published. For most items I have every edition/printing. I have never seen nor heard of a RPG system. Can you clue me in? This page covers it pretty good. Rumor has it FGE was JG's response to TSR abruptly pulling their D&D license, as the system features stuff like level 001 fighters with 018 strength, 008 intelligence, 004 AC, and 012 hp, iirc. Dungeons and Dragons: Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures (from cover of 1974 boxed set) Join the O.A.F - Old School 4E Needs You!
leadjunkie		#245	[-]
Posts: 1813 (10/30/08 20:03:08) Necromancer Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I thought this might be the reference. I discounted it based on Bob's comment in the article you link to. "It was a universal system, though it wasn't related to the Judges Guild Universal System that was being developed otherwise at the time." Also, as Bob indicates it is actually The Dragon's Byte's rules. It's sketchy and incomplete at best. Not to mention not very good. At least that was my take on the read, not having any actual play experience. But as you often say, "YMMV". Speaking of the link. A big shout out to our very own Plaag and the wonderful job he has done documenting JG on the Acaeum sub-web. (Disclaimer - I'm more than a little biased being a contributor.) Aspiring Killer DM 221 "4rons vs 3tards debate!" - Bowbe (Put me in the 3tards camp)
TheRavyn		#246	[-]
Posts: 1522 (10/31/08 03:26:53) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	leadjunkie wrote: A big shout out to our very own Plaag and the wonderful job he has done documenting JG on the Acaeum sub-web. It is an absolutely wonderful resource. Btw, I don't know of anyone who actually played the "Universal" system. I'm pretty sure it was just a legal way to keep stuff more or less compatible with D&D, not unlike OSRIC. Dungeons and Dragons: Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures (from cover of 1974 boxed set) Join the O.A.F - Old School 4E Needs You!
Q1000		#247	[-]
Posts: 1172 (10/31/08 05:36:34) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It was more of an add on, I have it but never used it, was pretty disappointed by it. I do like the material in the ready ref sheets better. This is a case where JG needed to do a better job to capture the D&D fans. City State was released using the universal system about the same time, there were interesting ideas in there never developed. QvO
Q1000		#248	[-]
Posts: 1174 (11/04/08 08:05:08) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	To let you all know I'm moving my game back to 1st ed vs 4th ed at this point. My group has fallen apart and due to work issues I have to move from a saturday format to a friday format which reduces the hours I can play. One thing 4.0 needs is plenty of time for combats. I love 1st ed and have a huge amount of material that I collected for over 30 years. My players still with me love the idea of returning to a more old school rules set. And I admit I love the old rules and how they played. QvO
Keeper of the Dark Realms		#249	[-]
Posts: 4447 (11/04/08 10:20:56) Master of Rules and Sinister Beasts Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Q1000 wrote: To let you all know I'm moving my game back to 1st ed vs 4th ed at this point. My group has fallen apart and due to work issues I have to move from a saturday format to a friday format which reduces the hours I can play. One thing 4.0 needs is plenty of time for combats. I love 1st ed and have a huge amount of material that I collected for over 30 years. My players still with me love the idea of returning to a more old school rules set. And I admit I love the old rules and how they played. QvO I'll likely be doing the same, for different reason. Players just don't care much for the feel of 4e. You running 1e by the book Q- or house-ruling? I myself have thought about inverting AC so it goes up and using base attack bonuses instead of the charts. Same for saves, 3e style. Scott =============== Necromancer Games www.necromancergames.com
Q1000		#250	[-]
Posts: 1176 (11/04/08 11:13:14) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Good question, Im putting together a players PDF and will let you know when its done. Im reviewing my dragon collection and the rules to determine what Im going to do. I will say that a few of my players never felt that 4.0 was D&D and I did state I felt that 4.0 was very starile versus what you find in 1st ed. I will be using the Arduain rules for special abilities, fumbles and crits. Im considering a mana system for spell casters but so far have not made up my mind. I like the to-hit charts and save tables, part of the charm to me. I will also use the wilderness book and dungeon book in my game. QvO
Elodan		#251	[-]
Posts: 47 (11/04/08 11:24:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Q1000 wrote: To let you all know I'm moving my game back to 1st ed vs 4th ed at this point.... I feel like I entered Bizarro World (<- this is a joke). Large chance of death, small chance of success, what are we waiting for!
DaveMage		#252	[-]
Posts: 1947 (11/04/08 11:28:19) Wilderlands Pathfinder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm seeing this more and more. The biggest shock was when user Irda Ranger on EN World in the same thread went from loving (and vehemently defending) 4E to finding it lacking and became no longer interested. Now granted, there are still a lot of people that seem to love the game, but the amount of people that were VERY gung-ho for the game that are now finding it lacking in some way is growing. Maybe it's a good thing that Necromancer hasn't jumped in with two feet....
JeffB		#253	[-]
Posts: 258 (11/04/08 11:42:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	DaveMage wrote: I'm seeing this more and more. The biggest shock was when user Irda Ranger on EN World in the same thread went from loving (and vehemently defending) 4E to finding it lacking and became no longer interested. Now granted, there are still a lot of people that seem to love the game, but the amount of people that were VERY gung-ho for the game that are now finding it lacking in some way is growing. Maybe it's a good thing that Necromancer hasn't jumped in with two feet.... I've seen this from a few people as well-sometimes shiny and new is what we want and the shiny wears off I guess. Hell I'm not saying it won;t wear off for me- it happened with 3E. And thats the point I was getting to: I see that a good chunk of people whom have tried 4E and then decided it's not for them are not going back to 3E, but exploring other avenues- O/B/X/AD&D- Savage Worlds, C&C, lighter D20 games (Conan and the like), the simulacrum games (S&W, OSRIC, LL, BFRPG) Johnny Cochranvoice: As will be the case for me- Anything but 3" Founding Father of O.A.F.- Old school Admirers of Fourth edition "Maybe I'm just getting too old to want to have to deal with a heap o' rules and the steaming heap o' rules lawyers who go with them."-Gary Gygax "D&D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules." Tim Kask, Foreword, Eldritch Wizardry 1976
TheRavyn		#254	[-]
Posts: 1540 (11/04/08 12:01:24) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Much as I'm enjoying 4E, a 1E "Renaissance" would suit me just fine... Dungeons and Dragons: Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures (from cover of 1974 boxed set) Join the O.A.F - Old School 4E Needs You!
DaveMage		#255	[-]
Posts: 1948 (11/04/08 12:13:10) Wilderlands Pathfinder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think the reason people are going from 4E to 1E (as opposed to 3E) is that 3E takes a lot of prep and play time. 4E seemed to solve the prep time issue, but did not solve the play time issue (and by play time, I'm referring mainly to combat). While combat rounds are faster in 4E (I've heard), combats themselves (encounters) seem to take the same amount of time as they did in 3E (or longer), and people are reporting that after a while, the combat is monotonous. That's one thing I loved about 1E was the speed. Getting through a dozen encounters in a session was easy. It takes about three sessions to get through the same in 3E (and, apparently, 4E). I love 3E, but the time it takes to play (prep and in session) is definitely an issue. With unlimited time, 3.5E would be near-perfect for me.
Q1000		#256	[-]
Posts: 1177 (11/04/08 12:15:57) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well, I can be a huge supporter of 4.0 if you need one, but I'm also honest. Now is a good time for me to run 1st ed. My last group was based on playing 3.5 and we did for 7 years. I needed a change and 4.0 was it. But not for all my players. Now I'm starting from scratch and I feel that with the number of people I met recently who like 1st ed out there that it looks like a good time to go back to my first love. I also feel I can get more done per session in 1st ed vs 4th ed. I had an interesting experience in my local used book store not to long ago. I met some people who had bought some older D&D material the store was selling, 1st ed, and were playing again after 20 years and loved it. It was fun talking about old stories with them as they were drawn back by there love of the game. I'm going to post a flyer there for 1st ed players. I have stated that you can get old school play from 4.0 rules and will not change that opinion, but you cant get 1st ed play from 4.0 rules in my opinion. I'm running 1st ed because I like the rules, there quirky and fun. I know I can run C&C and a host of other systems but its the old system I wish to run. Theres something to be said for having rolling an 18 for a stat in 1st ed, or making a save or exploring a dungeon. Good times. I made a statement about Piazo awhile back that Id never say a bad thing about there products, The same goes for 4.0. Both are good games and I endorse both but its not where I am now so its 1st ed for me. QvO
TheRavyn		#257	[-]
Posts: 1542 (11/04/08 13:54:33) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm seeing alot of internet chatter along the lines of "Wow, 4E really reminds me of 1E...but..." From there, its not much of a leap to "might as well just play 1E" Dungeons and Dragons: Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures (from cover of 1974 boxed set) Join the O.A.F - Old School 4E Needs You!
JeffB		#258	[-]
Posts: 260 (11/04/08 14:02:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Time constraints def are a huge factor when you get older and have a life outside of making believe you are elves prancing about the forest saving the princess I don't run a ton of combat regardless of edition- but yeah...4E combats indeed run long-considerably smoother than 3E, but long.. much longer than I like- I was starting to implement Ravyn's "Brutal 4E" rules and I think that would have done the trick (didn't get in enough time to say for positive), but yeah..too long. Pre-3E games run much faster, as does their derivatives-C&C, e.g. I'd have no issue going back to C&C with houserules if it came to that-(or any previous version of D&D barring 3rd, if the group was up for it) due to the groups current issues we may very well need to do that to get more "bang for the buck" adventuring time. We'll see. Founding Father of O.A.F.- Old school Admirers of Fourth edition "Maybe I'm just getting too old to want to have to deal with a heap o' rules and the steaming heap o' rules lawyers who go with them."-Gary Gygax "D&D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules." Tim Kask, Foreword, Eldritch Wizardry 1976
Keeper of the Dark Realms		#259	[-]
Posts: 4448 (11/05/08 08:26:14) Master of Rules and Sinister Beasts Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	DaveMage wrote: That's one thing I loved about 1E was the speed. Getting through a dozen encounters in a session was easy. It takes about three sessions to get through the same in 3E (and, apparently, 4E). I love 3E, but the time it takes to play (prep and in session) is definitely an issue. With unlimited time, 3.5E would be near-perfect for me. Yeppers. The encounters thing is something the guys I play with have talked about. We all remember 1e/2e when you could sit down and blow through an entire addy (home-made, or something like Bone Hill or Salt Marsh) in one evening. Four hours or less to go from start to finish. Combats were fast and furious and didn't take 30+ minutes for the party to defeat a band of kobolds guarding the entrance to the dungeon. And I'm with ya on 3.5. I might roll back to it if I make time to port parts of 4e that speed up prep time (monster/npc design for example). Scott =============== Necromancer Games www.necromancergames.com
DaveMage		#260	[-]
Posts: 1951 (11/05/08 10:32:54) Wilderlands Pathfinder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think the best approach to monster design for any edition would simply be to make monsters different than characters, but have blanket rules in place separately to allow monsters to be PCs/NPCs or otherwise have class levels. For NPCs, I think one real time challenge (in the RAW) is skill points. A basic resolution mechanic (such as skill bonus = level + ability bonus) for a standard NPC might work. BBEG's could get skill bonus = level + abilty bonus +3 or somesuch.

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