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JRRNeiklot	4e terminology	Lead	[-]
Posts: 489 (07/01/08 08:05:55) Spectre Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None 4e terminology is the thing that turns me off more than any other aspect. I'm a ranger, damnit, not a striker. What the hell is a controller? A cleric is a leader because he heals? Artillery, brutes? What happened to plain old goblins and orcs? Minions, eladrin, golden wyvern showers, healing surges that don't actually heal, the sterile language of spells, er powerz, etc. If they'd get rid of that crap and let a spade be a spade, I wouldn't hate 4e NEARLY as much. Lord Prufrock of the Maimed Knights of the Southron Kingdom C&C Society
serleran		#1	[-]
Posts: 123 (07/01/08 08:59:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I agree that a lot of the terminology is less than satisfying and leaves me scratching my head wondering "why?" I guess it is a marketing decision, and I am not the audience. So, I won't buy it - I mean, if I'm not who they want to sell to, I don't have to spend my money on their stuff.
TheRavyn		#2	[-]
Posts: 1027 (07/01/08 09:04:04) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Roles like "striker" and "controller" are defined to help players pick the class they want to play, they aren't meant to be used as alternate class names. I suppose you could trace that back to OD&D when you had "Fighting Men" and "Magic-Users" which eventually branched out to Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian and Illusionist/Necromancer/etc. Similarly, roles like "brute" and "artillery" are defined to help DMs design encounters, your DM shouldn't be calling them these names, but rather orc heavy infantry and orc archers or whatever. Using those terms at the game table would indeed be silly, so I can see why you would be irritated. That stuff is intended for behind the scenes stuff only. As far as not liking names of specific creatures or feats, why not just rename them? For instance, there are no "elves" or "eladrin" in my Wilderlands game, there are "wood elves" and "high elves". And Teiflings are "Demonbrood". I don't really care what feats or spells are called, since its the effects, not the name, that affects play, any more than I care whether a polearm is called a "Guisarme" or a "Ranseur", but that's just my opinion, ymmv. ---------- ---------- Flail Snail, Baby! ---------- ---------- Last Edited By: TheRavyn 07/01/08 09:07:23. Edited 1 times.
DaveMage		#3	[-]
Posts: 1722 (07/01/08 09:05:40) Wilderlands Pathfinder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The additional new terms are a turn-off to me as well. (Surprising, eh?)
Keeper of the Dark Realms		#4	[-]
Posts: 4388 (07/01/08 09:11:22) Master of Rules and Sinister Beasts Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	DaveMage wrote: The additional new terms are a turn-off to me as well. (Surprising, eh?) Im ok with Striker, Brute, Controller, etc. It's like Ravyn said...its there to help the players, DM, etc. Now- the power names on the other hand. Lots of them are completely stupid, as if someone just sat around throwing out random phrases or something with no sense of what the hell they were doing ("Hey! What about 'Black Blood of the Green Diaper Clan Complete with Bashy Crunchiness' for a power name?") Same goes for some of the monster names. Some are ok, some completely blow. Scott =============== Necromancer Games www.necromancergames.com
DaveMage		#5	[-]
Posts: 1724 (07/01/08 09:14:59) Wilderlands Pathfinder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Seems like the goal was to create names that would prevent - as best as possible - people using the OGL to create 4E products or 4E product clones. I understand it, but just reading some of those names is a huge turn-off for me. "Golden Wyvern Adept"? C'mon!
LibertonPC		#6	[-]
Posts: 5101 (07/01/08 09:28:40) Demonic Debator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Heheheh. You should make that power. Seriously. It could be your first NG contribution to 4e. Suppose they'd remove your license for that? *Psychos? Did they look like psychos to you? They were vampires. Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits them, I don't care how &$#ing crazy they are.**
Keeper of the Dark Realms		#7	[-]
Posts: 4389 (07/01/08 09:40:59) Master of Rules and Sinister Beasts Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	DaveMage wrote: Seems like the goal was to create names that would prevent - as best as possible - people using the OGL to create 4E products or 4E product clones. I understand it, but just reading some of those names is a huge turn-off for me. "Golden Wyvern Adept"? C'mon! Yep. I think you might be on to something there regarding 4e, the OGL, etc. Scott =============== Necromancer Games www.necromancergames.com
mtbdm		#8	[-]
Posts: 4554 (07/01/08 10:58:14) Bastard Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I don't like the adjective-laden 4e terminology. I don't think the terminology is evocative. I think it's annoying -- like the way a poor writer uses language. And as far as defining roles for player or DM (striker, brute, artillery, whatever...), I don't think it's necessary if the player or DM have two brain cells to rub together. As a DM I look at the creature stats and say "I think this creature would be good for..." whatever. And a lot of times I find little tricks WOTC never, apparently, considered or disagree with their basic assumptions. Or maybe I don't care what it's best at, it just happens to live where the players are going. I don't think 'defining roles' leads to creative play. It leads to thinking INSIDE the box. In previous editions they didn't tell you how to play your character. That was a GOOD thing. What's next, are they gonna come PLAY for me and just send me a synopsis of how the game went? I don't like the insinuation that gamers aren't smart enough to play the game the 'right' way. MtbDM Q: MtbDM, what is good in life? A: To crush the PCs, see their character sheets pile before you, and hear the lamentation of their players.
TheRavyn		#9	[-]
Posts: 1029 (07/01/08 11:09:38) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I don't think its a bad thing that WotC is offering a little more handholding to help bring newcomers to the hobby. I ignored the dumbed-down stuff in B/X, and its no different for me with 4E. ---------- ---------- Flail Snail, Baby! ---------- ----------
mtbdm	BASIC	#10	[-]
Posts: 4560 (07/01/08 11:19:15) Bastard Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That's what the old "Basic D&D" boxed sets are for. The only thing worse than re-buying all the splats is re-buying flavor text telling me how to play or run a game. I already KNOW what polyhedral dice are and how they work. And I've been designing adventures and encounters since before there were INSTRUCTIONS on how to do so. All they had to do was tweak 3.x and I'd probably have kept spending most of my disposable income on D&D crap forever. Now I don't even want most of the minis any more since they're all named something stupid like "Icebinder Troll of Groth" or "Wicked Fey of the Molten Eyes". Oh well, I guess with all that money I save I can send my kid to college or something... MtbDM Q: MtbDM, what is good in life? A: To crush the PCs, see their character sheets pile before you, and hear the lamentation of their players.
balrog62		#11	[-]
Posts: 227 (07/02/08 06:00:45) Ghast Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Okay, look out for lightning now.....I think Rayvn is right....about the hand holding aspects of 4e. WotC/Hasbro had a very good idea, make a version of D&D that brings in folks who are intimidated by the number and complexity of the books in 3e/3.5. But then some idiot in Marketing had a major brain fart. Instead of pushing this as an Intro form of D&D (like the B/X boxes were for TSR for getting folks hooked on the game and then luring some of them into AD&D), they decided to denigrate the current version of D&D. So, instead of continuing to gather income from the 3.5 crowd while also making money by hooking new folks in with 4e (which could easily have been called D&D Lite or Basic D&D or Intro D&D or something else which ties the two together), they chose to drive a wedge in their customer base. I don't understand their (WotC/Hasbro) mindset on this, but whatever. I wish them luck with it. Now, I only buy WotC books at the used book store. I've got a copy of the core 4e books (thanks to a student of mine) and I'm trying to find a group to playtest it. No one in my group even wants to give it a chance after looking through the books.
mtbdm		#12	[-]
Posts: 4563 (07/02/08 06:50:05) Bastard Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It seems they would be in the minority. Most gamers I see online are frothing at the mouth to throw money at WOTC to play this fine new miniatures game. Thankfully I know a bunch in my area content to stick with 3.5. MtbDM Q: MtbDM, what is good in life? A: To crush the PCs, see their character sheets pile before you, and hear the lamentation of their players.
Sykoholic		#13	[-]
Posts: 2721 (07/02/08 12:02:08) Not of this World Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	TheRavyn wrote: For instance, there are no "elves" or "eladrin" in my Wilderlands game, there are "wood elves" and "high elves". That's sort of the way I've been looking at it as well. Just out of curiousity, how do you explain the "fey step" ability of the "high elves"? mtbdm wrote: That's what the old "Basic D&D" boxed sets are for. The only thing worse than re-buying all the splats is re-buying flavor text telling me how to play or run a game. I already KNOW what polyhedral dice are and how they work. And I've been designing adventures and encounters since before there were INSTRUCTIONS on how to do so. Looking at WotC's release schedule, the "Basic Game" is due in November. I'm not sure exactly how they intend to make it any more "basic" than it already is but..... Was I the only one who, while reading the 4E PHB, found themselves thinking "Okay.... when will the advanced version be available"? As for instructions for designing adventures and encounters.... I will openly admit I am one of the people who requires some hand-holding. I liked the fact that the DMG included the step-by-step design crunch. What I didn't like is how they split it up. "Building Encounters" is Chapter 4 and "DM's Toolbox" is Chapter 10. That's 6 chapters, 100+ pages of flavor and fluff, seperating the essential parts of the book. Other than those two chapters and Chapter 5 "Non-Combat Encounters", the rest of the DMG is pretty much useless. I wonder if there's any way to get an abridged/condensed version that only contains those three chapters. ________________________________ "Not all who wander are lost." - J.R.R. Tolkien
TheRavyn		#14	[-]
Posts: 1042 (07/02/08 12:21:20) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Sykoholic wrote: TheRavyn wrote: For instance, there are no "elves" or "eladrin" in my Wilderlands game, there are "wood elves" and "high elves". 1.That's sort of the way I've been looking at it as well. Just out of curiousity, how do you explain the "fey step" ability of the "high elves"? None of my players are currently playing an eladrin, though there is a "wood elf" fighter. I'm not displeased with Fey Step as written, in older edition terms it comes off kind of a like a 0-lvl version of Blink or Dimension Door. I've seen it in play though, with the first 4E pregens, and in practice it is really just a flashy way of avoiding opportunity attacks for one move, more akin to "Tumble" than anything else. Dungeons and Dragons: Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures (from cover of 1974 boxed set)
Prismatic DM		#15	[-]
Posts: 398 (07/02/08 14:38:03) Wight Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The player with the eladrin wizard in my group really likes fey step. I'm liking it too. In fact, I like what they've done with most of the 4e races, and I don't miss the gnome or half-orc at all. Weird feeling when an ability like fey step makes me think "kewl". It's like I'm rediscovering D&D back in 1980 and I'm 9 years-old again -- mostly because the game is so different. The shoes are comfy. I agree with the sentiment that many of the power names are goofballs. Very much so. I enjoy making Bruce Lee faces and squeals when I say them. However, I couldn't care less, they're only freakin' names. ------------------ My Classic D&D game homepage and blog: The Borderlands Drunken DM and the Speak with Dead spell: "No, I'm not the limed-over skeleton of the abbot, and no this special key in my bony fingers does not open the door to the secret treasury! ... Oh crap."
gideon thorne		#16	[-]
Posts: 213 (07/02/08 16:43:45) Ghoul Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	JRRNeiklot wrote: golden wyvern showers, Ok.. my mind went in a very gutter like place with this one. Peter B Castles & Crusades/ Castle Zagyg/Wilderlands of High Adventure Artist
DnDChick		#17	[-]
Posts: 10137 (07/02/08 16:54:51) Demon Queen of Templates Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Prismatic DM wrote: However, I couldn't care less, they're only freakin' names. I had a similar experience with someone ranting about how stooopid it was that tieflings have tails, but dragonborn don't. He thought that was the dumbest thing since the flumph. He just couldn't fathom why the big brutish descendants of dragons didn't have big scaly tails as well. It made no dent on his argument when I pointed out that the tiefling tails are non-prehensile, don't give any bonuses to any skills, provide no special abilities, etc. It is 100% cosmetic, and has no more effect on game play or the rules than hair length or eye color. If he wanted the dragonborn to have tails, then they have tails. No... dragonborn don't have tails, and that's dumb, apparently, and despite the dumbness, it can't be changed. Methinks the laddy doth protest too much. Erica (that chick that helps Scott ... ) Necromancer Games: 3rd edition rules, 1st edition feel! True20: True fun, true excitement, true adventure: True20!
Sangrolu		#18	[-]
Posts: 1890 (07/02/08 19:25:18) Necromancer Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I don't mind the new terminology (implementing all classes as spins on the basic 4, sounds like it might not be the best idea.) But some of the other MMO terminology that has been drug to the table by some MMO-escapees is noisome. Calling your character a "toon"? Blech. --- (This space for rent)
Q1000		#19	[-]
Posts: 1043 (07/02/08 20:04:55) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Personally I'd like to hire some voice actor with a big, booming voice to record each of the names of the powers in the game. So when one is used you get this loud "Rabbits and Wolves" cry. It be great for a con game in the open room, would freak some people out I'm sure. Ken
moorg		#20	[-]
Posts: 2906 (07/02/08 21:40:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Prismatic DM wrote: In fact, I like what they've done with most of the 4e races, and I don't miss the gnome or half-orc at all. Well of course you're not going to miss the Gnome.... It's racial info to play as a PC is in the back of the Monster Manual.

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