Gods by region in Wilderlands Gazetteer Forum

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Gods by region

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Arkanak	Gods by region	Lead	[-]
Posts: 11 Sep 8 06 12:15 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None Does anyone have a list of the gods and goddesses worshipped by region in the Wilderlands? It would make DMing my campaign a lot easier. If nobody has a list, can someone give me a good idea of what gods would be worshipped by region? Thanks, Matt
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SgtHulka	Re: Gods by region	#1	[-]
Posts: 1921 Sep 8 06 5:18 AM Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	That would be an excellent new project to go with the density charts. Alot of the village entries include patron deities for the clerics listed. I can offer some very non-scientific and obvious ones: Shang-Ta: Antil and Mysk Thor: Sea Rune (traditional Skandiks) Mitra: Modron & Raglaroon Modron: Modron & Raglaroon Morg (Hellbridge Heresy): City State & Tributaries Mycr: Holy Cities Athena: Sea Rune (Amazons) Loki: Ossary Rosmeta: Thunderhold and Rorystone Road Hephaestus: Byrny More generally: Norse Pantheon: Pagan Coast (and Croy) Greek Pantheon: Tarsh (?), Amazons Indian Pantheon: Karak, ?(Tarantis?) Celtic Pantheon: Tharbrian Plains Egyptian Pantheon: ?(Kelnor Successor States?) Everyone seems to adaopt everyone else's Gods, though, which is very realistic for polytheistic cultures (and even more realistic for D&D, where Gods offer very real magical power). I'm kind of interested where Morg's non-Hellbridge Temple Lawful Neutral/Lawful Good followers concentrate.
Diabolus	Re: Gods by region	#2	[-]
Posts: 969 Sep 8 06 5:53 AM Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tarantis is home to the major temples to the two Gishmesh dieties, the benevolent Selanii, the Sea Mother, who is mainly worshiped by the Paldoran clan and the Sun god (who's name escapes me at the moment...) held on high by the ruling Gishmesh clan who leans towards evil and demands human sacrifice at least annually. Zothay in Barbarian Altanis at the lower end of the Skandik tributary range has a large group of Paldorian refugees and has a temple to Selanii as well.
robertsconley	Re: Gods by region	#3	[-]
Posts: 525 Sep 8 06 9:52 AM Spectre Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Morg's Hellbridge Temple is a heretical sect of THOTH. So the answer to your question they are next door in the Temple of Thoth the Terrible. Rob Conely
SgtHulka	Re: Gods by region	#4	[-]
Posts: 1921 Sep 11 06 10:43 AM Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Well, according to the Player's Guide "It is believed that the hellbridge temple has departed from the true worship of Morg and some devout priests are seeking to recover the Baleful Eye and overthrow the temple." That statement, combined with the fact that Morg is Lawful Neutral and the Hellbridge is Lawful Evil, leads me to believe it's heretical (note: using "heretical" in its original, non-disparaging sense, i.e, a seperate school) to "normal" Morg-worship, which is more Lawful Neutral. This may all be new to the Necromancer version of the City State and, as you say, the "devout priests" mentioned may be housed in the Temple of Thoth regardless, which may have a shrine dedicated to Morg and other Egyptian-pantheon Deities (like Odin's Temple has a shrine dedicated to Thor). Still, for my Wilderlands, I like the idea of having a center of worship for the neutral and even good aspects of Morg somewhere. I love that a character could be a Morg Paladin, "fall", become a Blackguard, and continue to worship Morg. Same goes for a Lawful Good Morg Cleric turning Lawful Evil or vice versa. For a lot of Deities that's possible (pretty much all the neutral ones) but for whatever reason it seems particularly appropriate for Morg. Shang-Ta fascinates me too, because of the following little fragment in the Player's Guide: "...is netural incarnation of the god Shang-Ti...Were the gods to be re-contacted by use of the fabled Amulet of Amalazar, Shang-Ta would restore his worship to its rightful tenets." It's all these little half-ideas sprinkled throughout all the various Necromancer Games products of the Wilderlands that make it such an inspiring setting.
Diabolus	Re: Gods by region	#5	[-]
Posts: 969 Sep 11 06 12:34 PM Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Morg, if I recall correctly, was in Thoth's Court (or a Lawful Aspect of Thoth himself...), so yes, I'd say LN and even LG/TN Clerics of Morg would probably feel more at home in the Temple of Thoth grumbling about how those "Heretics" stole the Eye. Truth is the Hellbridge Heresy seems to be more dedicated to power and tyranny (hey, it IS LE...) and pays only lip service to Morg. In my PBP Wilderlands campaign that uses the Conan RPG, where alignments don't exist, the High Priest is a Ghinoran sorcerer pretender who sacrifices to the Baleful Eye which absorbs the magic points (more points for tortured sacrifices, note how this has become such a staple?). He can then use them however he wishes, usually as a power broker summoning demons/elementals or controlling the weather depending on whichever ways the polical winds blow. The BoVD also gives regular D&D benefits to the celebrant and audience for sacrifice of this sort, if you're so inclined (such as a temporary spell effect, or experience points that can be used to create magical items).
Gansk		#6	[-]
Posts: 85 Jul 19 09 1:38 AM Ghoul Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Here is the start of my attempt at this, using the most populous map 5 - City State as a guide. You must determine the alignment of the worshipper first, then roll on the chart which is separated into three parts - Good Worshippers, Neutral Worshippers, and Evil Worshippers. I only have a list of Good Worshippers for now. Map 5 - City State - Good Worshippers 01-16 Odin (NG) 17-24 Manannan (NG) 25-31 Thor (CG) 32-37 Mitra (LG) 38-42 Brigit (CG) 43-47 Cilborith (CG) (Elf) 48-50 Rosmerta (LG) (Dwarf) 51-52 Frey (NG) (Elf) 53-54 Heimdall (LG) 55-56 Sif (CG) 57-58 Tyr (LG) 59 Athena (LG) 60 Balder (NG) 61 Bragi (NG) 62 Dagda (NG) 63 Diancecht (NG) 64 Freya (NG) 65 Lugh (NG) 66 Magni (CG) 67 Nuada (LG) 68 Sushai (Pegana) 69 Vidar (CG) 70-79 Other NG God 80-87 Other LG God 88-95 Other CG God 96-97 Other LN God 98-99 Other CN God 00 Other N God
leadjunkie		#7	[-]
Posts: 3705 Jul 19 09 9:45 AM Necromancer Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I had a thought and am throwing out in case you see any value in it. Perhaps arange the table by pantheons or sects and then have a subtable for for the gods it encompasses. Panteon/Sect: 1-20 Skandik (Norse) 21-40 Tharbrian (Celtic) 41-50 Mitra (no subtable) 51-60 ... Skandik - subtable: 01-33 Odin (NG) 34-50 Thor (CG) 51-55 Frey (NG) (Elf) 56-60 Heimdall (LG) 61-65 Sif (CG) 66-70 Tyr (LG) 71-80 Balder (NG) 81- 90 Bragi (NG) 91-00 Freya (NG) Percentages are just an example. Clearly Thor will be more popular than other Skandik gods. Your previous work on racial distribution will serve to inform you on a base percentage for pantheon/sect worshipers. Games I am... Judging - Kingmaker: Adventure Path PFRPG Playing - Tom Crone's, Order of the Rusty Dagger (home brew), PFRPG; Stan Shinn's, Redmark Campaign in the Barrow Maze, S&W White Box; Ken Mezger's, Myth II (home brew), PFRPG "Virtual" Type I Demon ('cuz Yuku's lame)
Gansk		#8	[-]
Posts: 85 Jul 19 09 1:20 PM Ghoul Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	That does seem to have value - it will allow more modularity, so individual DM's can swap out pantheons that don't appeal to them. Should I just mix all alignments within the pantheon and not split them up into Good, Evil & Neutral? I think I would need to create a "Wilderlands Pantheon" subtable and have some gods from other pantheons cross over into the subtable - that way gods like Odin and Thor get some regional emphasis since they are worshipped by non-Skandiks, etc.
leadjunkie		#9	[-]
Posts: 3705 Jul 20 09 9:20 PM Necromancer Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Yes, yes and yes. I look forward to what you come up with. Games I am... Judging - Kingmaker: Adventure Path PFRPG Playing - Tom Crone's, Order of the Rusty Dagger (home brew), PFRPG; Stan Shinn's, Redmark Campaign in the Barrow Maze, S&W White Box; Ken Mezger's, Myth II (home brew), PFRPG "Virtual" Type I Demon ('cuz Yuku's lame)
Ifuritasfan	Mitra	#10	[-]
Posts: 427 Nov 17 09 8:13 PM Ghast Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Don't forget Mycr as well. There's like 5 holy cities to mycr on World emperor map.
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Gansk		#11	[-]
Posts: 85 Jul 2 11 9:49 PM Ghoul Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Map 1: Elphand Lands Region (population 55,000) 01-55 Wilderlands Pantheon 56-72 Norse Pantheon 73-86 Celtic Pantheon 87-95 Greek Pantheon 96-98 Chinese Pantheon 99-00 Egyptian Pantheon Wilderlands Subtable: 01-14 Odin (NG) 15-25 Mitra (LG) 26-36 Poseidon (CN) 37-44 Brigit (N) 45-52 Kazadurum (N) (Dwarf) 53-60 Thor (CG) 61-65 Goibhnie (N) 66-70 Rhiannon (N) 71-74 Athena (LG) 75-78 Kutabold (NE) 79-82 Midor (CE) (Orc & Goblinoid) 83-85 Frey (NG) 86-88 Mosinylo (N) (God of the North Wind) 89-90 Alinah (LN) 91-92 Feninva (CE) 93 Mycr (LG) 94-00 Rare Gods Subtable Norse Subtable: 01-19 Thor (CG) 20-34 Loki (CE) 35-45 Odin (NG) 46-54 Hel (NE) 55-61 Frigga (LN) 62-64 Aegir (CE) 65-67 Frey (NG) 68-70 Tyr (LG) 71-72 Freya (CG) 73-74 Uller (CN) 75 Balder (NG) 76 Bragi (NG) 77 Fenris Wolf (CE) 78 Heimdall (LN) 79 Magni (CG) 80 Sif (CG) 81 Surtur (LE) 82 Thrym (CE) 83 Vidar (CG) 84-00 Other (Pick or roll on Wilderlands Subtable) Celtic Subtable: 01-19 Dagda (CG) 20-33 Silvanus (N) 34-44 Manannan (NG) 45-53 Oghma (N) 54-57 Morrigan (CE) 58-61 Nuada (LG) 62-63 Dunatis (CN) 64-65 Goibhnie (N) 66-67 Lugh (N) 68-69 Math (NE) 70 Arawn (LE) 71 Brigit (N) 72 Dianecht (LG) 73-00 Other (Pick or roll d6: 1-2 Harmakhis (CE); 4-6 roll on Wilderlands Subtable) Greek Subtable: 01-13 Zeus (CG) 14-26 Hera (CN) 27-38 Hecate (CE) 39-48 Athena (LG) 49-57 Hades (LE) 58-65 Poseidon (CN) 66-69 Artemis (N) 70-72 Hephaestus (N) 73 Aphrodite (CG) 74 Apollo (CG) 75 Ares (CE) 76 Demeter (NG) 77-00 Other (Pick or roll on Wilderlands Subtable) Chinese Subtable: 01-23 Shang Ta (N) 24-36 Chih Sung-Tzu (N) 37-39 Huan Ti (CG) 40-42 Kuan Yin (LG) 43-45 No Cha (NE) 46 Chao Kung Ming (NG) 47-00 Other (Pick or roll on Wilderlands Subtable) Egyptian Subtable: 01-27 Thoth (N) 28-42 Ra (NG) 43-51 Set (LE) 52-58 Nephthys (LN) 59-62 Seker (LG) 63-64 Isis (LG) 65 Anhur (CG) 66 Anubis (LN) 67 Bast (CG) 68 Horus (LN) 69 Osirus (LG) 70 Ptah (LN) 71 Shu (LG) 72-00 Other (Pick or roll on Wilderlands Subtable) Rare Gods Subtable: 01-17 Nephthys (LN) 18-29 Dionysus (CN) 30-39 Aphrodite (CG) 40-48 Silvanus (N) 49-53 Armadad Bog (LE) 54-57 Damaka (N) (Goddess of Clay) 58-61 Losborst (CG) (God of Wine) 62-65 Tama Hama (CE) 66-68 Finnish Pantheon 69-71 Kolrak Mar (CE) (Troll & Goblinoid) 72-73 Amala (LG) (Athena) 74-75 Bachontoi (LG) (God of Red Wisdom) 76-77 Frigga (LN) 78-79 Indian Pantheon 80-81 Molna (LG) (God of Travelers) 82-83 Njord (NG) (Norse god of Commerce) 84-85 Rosmerta (LG) (Dwarf) 86-87 Shang Ta (N) 88-89 Shashuk (CE) 90 Aram Kor (LN) 91 Baalzebul (LE) 92 Beytnorn (N) 93 Bondorr (N) 94 Braz-Kazon (CN) 95 Cilborith (CG) (Elf) 96 Coriptis (CN) 97 Harmakhis (CE) 98 Kutienna (LG) 99 Thoth (N) 00 Vala Tar (LG) Finnish Subtable: 01-19 Ahto (NG) 20-31 Tuoni (CE) 32-38 Ukko (LG) 39-41 Mielikki (NG) 42-43 Louhi (LE) 44-45 Surma (NE) 46 Ilmatar (LG) 47-00 Other (Pick or re-roll on Rare Gods Subtable) Indian Subtable: 01-29 Kara (LN) 30-38 Vishnu (LG) 39-42 Rudra (LN) 43-45 Varuna (LN) 46-48 Yama (LN) 49-50 Agni (CN) 51-52 Kali (CE) 53-54 Ratri (NE) 55-56 Surya (LG) 57 Karttikeya (LG) 58 Lakshmi (CG) 59 Tvashtri (CG) 60 Ushas (LG) 61-00 Other (Pick or re-roll on Rare Gods Subtable) Last Edited By: Gansk Jul 5 11 8:59 PM. Edited 1 times.
leadjunkie		#12	[-]
Posts: 3705 Jul 3 11 11:42 AM Necromancer Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Nice revival of the thread. Are you running a current campaign in the Elphand lands? Games I am... Judging - Kingmaker: Adventure Path PFRPG Playing - Tom Crone's, Order of the Rusty Dagger (home brew), PFRPG; Stan Shinn's, Redmark Campaign in the Barrow Maze, S&W White Box; Ken Mezger's, Myth II (home brew), PFRPG "Virtual" Type I Demon ('cuz Yuku's lame)
Gansk		#13	[-]
Posts: 85 Jul 3 11 12:34 PM Ghoul Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	No, just picking up where I left off...
Gansk		#14	[-]
Posts: 85 Jul 4 11 11:53 AM Ghoul Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Map 2: Valon Region (population 63,000) 01-59 Wilderlands Pantheon 60-79 Celtic Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) 80-92 Norse Pantheon 93-99 Greek Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) 00 Egyptian Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) Wilderlands Subtable: 01-11 Vala Tar (LG) 12-20 Kazadurum (N) (Dwarf) 21-27 Rosmerta (LG) (Dwarf) 28-34 Silvanus (N) 35-40 Brigit (N) 41-45 Amala (LG) (Athena) 46-50 Aram Kor (LN) 51-55 Poseidon (CN) 56-59 Limtram (N) (Goddess of Meadows) 60-63 Odin (NG) 64-67 Teth Tufa (NG) (Goddess of Gnomes) 68-70 Dacron (N) (God of Craftsmen) 71-73 Goibhnie (N) 74-76 Manannan (NG) 77-79 Midor (CE) (Orc & Goblinoid) 80-82 Mitra (LG) 83-84 Angall (CE) 85-86 Aniu (N) 87-88 Cilborith (CG) (Elf) 89-90 Pegana (NE) (Mana) 91-92 Shindra (LE) (Goddess of Dancing Girls) 93-94 Sif (CG) 95-96 Suthak (CG) (Goddess of Fertility) 97 Seker (LG) 98 Thanatos (LE) 99-00 Rare Gods Subtable Norse Subtable: 01-16 Odin (NG) 17-29 Thor (CG) 30-41 Frigga (LN) 42-53 Hel (NE) 54-63 Loki (CE) 64-68 Frey (NG) 69-71 Tyr (LG) 72-73 Aegir (CE) 75-75 Freya (CG) 76-77 Heimdall (LN) 78-79 Uller (CN) 80 Balder (NG) 81 Bragi (NG) 82 Fenris Wolf (CE) 83 Magni (CG) 84 Sif (CG) 85 Surtur (LE) 86 Thrym (CE) 87 Vidar (CG) 88-00 Other (Pick or roll on Wilderlands Subtable) Rare Gods Subtable: 01-22 Babylonian Pantheon 23-31 Frigga (LN) 32-39 Dagda (CG) 40-45 Aegir (CE) 46-50 Armadad Bog (LE) 51-55 Athena (LG) 56-60 Braz-Kazon (CN) 61-65 Harmakhis (CE) 66-70 Kale Kala (N) 71-75 Losborst (CG) (God of Wine) 76-80 Shang Ta (N) 81-85 Thor (CG) 86-88 Finnish Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) 89-91 Indian Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) 92-94 Tsathoggus (CE) 95-96 Chinese Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) 97-98 Montintra (LE) (Goddess of Lightning & Mirrors) 99-00 Shashuk (CE) Babylonian Subtable: 01-19 Anu (LN) 20-26 Ishtar (N) 27-29 Ramman (N) 30-31 Anshar (CE) 32-33 Dahak (CE) 34-35 Druaga (LE) 36-37 Marduk (LN) 38-39 Nergal (NE) 40-00 Other (Pick or roll on Rare Gods Subtable)
bstern		#15	[-]
Posts: 26 Jul 6 11 12:56 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I'm enjoying seeing this - thanks!
mtbdm		#16	[-]
Posts: 5605 Jul 7 11 5:36 AM Bastard Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I've printed this for use as the Elphand Lands and Valon are the region where my campaign is set. Thanks for all the hard work!! Bill Haverchuck: He thinks being the Dungeon Master gives him the license to mess with our heads. Harris Trinsky: Oh, I'm Sorry. Perhaps I should let you encounter kittens and grandmas so as not to upset you.
Gansk		#17	[-]
Posts: 85 Jul 7 11 11:24 PM Ghoul Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Glad it's helping you out! Here's a region with some wacky gods from the Unknown Gods JG supplement. Map 3: Valley of the Ancients (population 61,000) 01-75 Wilderlands Pantheon 76-86 Greek Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) 87-92 Celtic Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) 93-96 Norse Pantheon 97-99 Egyptian Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) 00 Indian Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) Wilderlands Subtable: 01-27 Beytnorn (N) 28-38 Apollo (CG) 39-45 Athena (LG) 46-50 Brigit (N) 51-55 Harmakhis (CE) 56-60 Thor (CG) 61-65 Thoth (N) 66-69 Kazadurum (N) (Dwarf) 70-73 Phelonious (N) (God of Ancient Kings) 74-76 Ihlwynd (NE) (God of Pestilence) 77-79 Kutalagon (N) 80-82 Midor (CE) (Orc & Goblinoid) 84-85 Mitra (LG) 86-87 Mosinylo (N) (God of the North Wind) 88 Eqni (N) (God of Earth) 89 Odin (NG) 90 Varuna (LN) 91-00 Rare Gods Subtable Rare Gods Subtable: 01-11 Goibhnie (N) 12-19 Babylonian Pantheon (use Map 2 Subtable) 20-26 Dacron (N) (God of Craftsmen) 27-32 Ishtar (N) 33-38 Limtram (N) (Goddess of Meadows) 39-44 Mungo (NE) (God of Nightmares) 45-49 Kutabold (NE) 50-54 Rosmerta (LG) (Dwarf) 55-59 Set (LE) 60-64 Zarkon (N) (God of Long Rivers) 65-68 Finnish Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) 69-72 Seker (LG) 73-76 Teros (CG) (God of the Forest) 77-79 Kuvartma (LE) 80-82 Lord Skortch (CE) (God of Pillage) 83-85 Mesha (CG) (Goddess of the Seasons) 86-88 Shashuk (CE) 89-90 Angall (CE) 91-92 Margonne (LE) (God of Evil Plans) 93-94 Molna (LG) (God of Travelers) 95-96 Selanii (CG) 97 Adorak Tau (LE) 98 Aram Kor (LN) 99 Nike (LN) (Greek Demi-goddess of Victory) 00 Vala Tar (LG) Norse Subtable: 01-21 Odin (NG) 22-38 Frigga (CG) 39-53 Hel (NE) 54-59 Frey (NG) 60-65 Thor (CG) 66-70 Loki (CE) 71-74 Tyr (LG) 75-76 Heimdall (LN) 77 Aegir (CE) 78 Balder (NG) 79 Bragi (NG) 80 Fenris Wolf (CE) 81 Freya (CG) 82 Magni (CG) 83 Sif (CG) 84 Surtur (LE) 85 Thrym (CE) 86 Uller (CN) 87 Vidar (CG) 88-00 Other (Pick or roll on Wilderlands Subtable)
Gansk		#18	[-]
Posts: 85 Jul 9 11 10:11 PM Ghoul Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Map 4: Viridistan (population 193,000) 01-71 Wilderlands Pantheon 72-86 Chinese Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) 87-92 Egyptian Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) 93-96 Celtic Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) 97-00 Norse Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) Wilderlands Subtable: 01-16 Armadad Bog (LE) 17-31 Nephthys (LN) 32-44 Thoth (N) 45-53 Thor (CG) 54-61 Natch Ur (CE) 62-67 Seker (LG) 68-72 Shang Ta (N) 73-76 Odin (NG) 77-79 Frigga (LN) 80-81 Mycr (LG) 82-83 Tama Hama (CE) 84 Cilborith (CG) (Elf) 85 Ugtargnt (LE) 86-00 Rare Gods Subtable Rare Gods Subtable: 01-08 Rhiannon (N) 09-15 Kale Kala (N) 16-21 Athena (LG) 22-27 Greek Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) 28-33 Grismal (N) 34-38 Beytnorn (N) 39-43 Central American Pantheon 44-48 Mondorent (LE) 49-52 Apollo (CG) 53-56 Goibhnie (N) 57-60 Modron (N) 61-63 Hei (N) (God of Giants) 64-66 Losborst (CG) (God of Wine) 67-69 Margonne (LE) (God of Evil Plans) 70-72 Midor (CE) (Orc & Goblinoid) 73-75 Morg (LN) 76-78 Sashu (LN) (God of Justice) 79-81 Scodem (LN) (God of the Hunt) 82-83 Artemis (N) 84-85 Bondorr (N) 86-87 Kazadurum (N) (Dwarf) 88-89 Mawdorn (CE) (God of Shadows) 90-91 Orcus (CE) 92-93 Rashtri (NE) (Goddess of Strength) 94-95 Tangadorn (N) (God of the Sky Dwellers) 96-97 Zarkon (N) (God of Long Rivers) 98 Angall (CE) 99 Indian Pantheon (use Map 1 Subtable) 00 Rosmerta (LG) (Dwarf) Central American Subtable: 01-17 Quetzalcoatl (LN) 18-21 Huhueteotl (CE) 22-23 Camazotz (CE) 24-25 Tlaloc (LE) 26-00 Other (Pick or roll on Rare Gods Subtable)
Golth The Northman		#19	[-]
Posts: 201 Jul 17 11 12:15 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I applaud you Gansk. I use your racial generation tables all the time. Love em. Please include Partressa in some of these. I'm quite certain she pops up (in my campaign) right around the Isles of Pokrantil (Valon Map). Maybe she's not so much worshiped by people though, more feared and placated by sacrifice...
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