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What is the D&D brand?

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dorentir

Re: What is the D&D brand?

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Posts: 296

Oct 22 07 6:46 AM

Shadow

The "D&D Brand" is the i.p. It's the rights to the name and associated trade marks. "Brand' makes me think of marketing speak --- where one product or service is easily identified in the marketplace by a distinctive name, packaging, etc. It's the front end grill of the Jeep. It's the red and white striped paper bucket with the picture of the Colonel for KFC. It's the big yellow arches at McDonalds. It's the stuff that appears with a little c in a circle next to it.
What most people describe here and in the other thread as the "brand," i.e., sitting up late nights pretending to be an elf and rolling polyhedrals while debating obscure rules, I think would more appropriately termed "the culture of D&D" or "the experience."
Marketeers want you to associate their brand with the experience simply because that is the way that they can capture the customers.
There is no doubt in my mind that when I first picked up D&D it really captured my imagination... but that was more as a result of what we did with it (and the possibilities it represented to my young mind) than anything else.

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Baron Opal

Re: What is the D&D brand?

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Posts: 287

Oct 26 07 12:25 AM

Wight

Hmm.

To me, D&D is the opportunity to be the hero, to accomplish deeds of renown without peer. To hew through villany and win a kiss from the princess. To earn riches beyond the dreams of avarice through might and wit.

It is also the framework of defined roles with a jumble of opponents. No necessary background to the world, which differentiates it from the Shadowrun or RuneQuest experiences. They're fun, and for a while it was what I did on a Friday night, but it wasn't D&D.

The ends are truly colored by the means.

leadjunkie

Re: What is the D&D brand?

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Posts: 3711

Oct 26 07 6:27 AM

Necromancer

Quote:
The "D&D Brand" is the i.p. It's the rights to the name and associated trade marks. "Brand' makes me think of marketing speak ---

I don't disagree with you. However, D&D the brand has become iconic and has entered the lexicon much the same way that people say Jell-o when they mean gelatin, or Kleenex when they mean tissue, etc.

mtbdm

Re: What is the D&D brand?

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Posts: 5605

Oct 26 07 8:19 AM

Bastard

Sorta, except most role-players call different role-playing games by their actual names. But there are at least as many different things you can DO with D&D as there are things you can do with, say, a kleenex, but it's all still called D&D.

MtbDM

Q: MtbDM, what is good in life?
A: To crush the PCs, see their character sheets pile before you, and hear the lamentation of their players.

dorentir

Re: What is the D&D brand?

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Posts: 296

Oct 27 07 1:11 PM

Shadow

Quote:
I don't disagree with you. However, D&D the brand has become iconic and has entered the lexicon much the same way that people say Jell-o when they mean gelatin, or Kleenex when they mean tissue, etc.

Right you are. Maybe I should revise my statement to say that the i.p. and everything else are the basis of the brand name or something similar, but at this point, marketing is as much about capitalizing on other people's assumptions and associations as it is about anything else, and my definition leaves that out.
Of course, that will vary according to whom you talk to. I tend to think more about the earlier versions of the game I grew up with. Younger players, who picked up the hobby more recently, tend to think of it in terms of the 3e books. To the outsider, D&D might be the game that nerds and geeks play, or a tool of the devil...

Prismatic DM

Re: What is the D&D brand?

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Posts: 746

Nov 2 07 11:19 AM

Wight

For me, the D&D brand experience is sharing sword & sorcery adventure with friends at a table using a game with six underlying ruleset assumptions. Those ruleset assumptions (or "sacred cows" as some call them) are, in order of importance:

#1: combat with separate d20 attack and variable-dice damage rolls
#2: experience levels
#3: hit points
#4: rationed spellcasting
#5: various races and/or classes to play
#6: kill monsters, take stuff

If these six things aren't present, I'm playing an RPG, but it's not D&D as far as I'm concerned. For instance, Rolemaster is very very close (only misses out on assumption #1), but still not D&D to me.

------------------

Drunken DM and the Speak With Dead spell: "No, I'm not the limed-over skeleton of the abbot, and no this special key in my boney fingers does not open the door to the secret treasury! ... Oh crap."

Ifuritasfan

Re: What is the D&D brand?

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Posts: 427

Nov 20 07 1:27 PM

Ghast

Good question, and I'm in support of the Sticky.

Okay, I've heard arguments about this for a long time.

Some people say it's the setting (Greyhawk, forgotten realms, Dark sun, mystra,... etc) the trademarked unique words that make up the D&/D pantheon if you will.
To this I respond, what about the core idea that the 1st edition AD&D never really made much mention of the game being tied to any of those works? The game is intended to be a generic set of rules that can be used to run a fantasy campaign in just about any world?

So I'd say that the setting has nothing to do with it beyond a basic Fantasy world setting (hence the term dungeons and dragons) One doesn't usually find either dungeons or dragons in anything other than a fantasy setting.

Some people claim it's the adventuring experience. But to that I again point out that you can have the same fantasy adventure experience with RM, or Arduin, or Gurps, or Runequest or any of a dozen other game systems.

For me... it's the system. The concept of a clearly deliniated set of statistics that cover the traits of strength, int, wis, dex, con and charisma that provide specific in game bonuses or penalties. It's about a game system that has specific character classes that have specific benefits and restrictions to them, and which have inbuilt traits that decide how that character's growth will advance as they gain in prowess. It's a game that uses a process of rewards and punishments for role playing a character within a specifically deliniated moral ethos (alignment). It's about the game system harkening back to it's tabletop roots such that the concepts of flanking attacks, morale, range, visibility, environment and a whole host of potential modifiers help decide how combat is sussed out.

However, what this all means for me is that when Hasbro and WotC put out 3.x and now 4.x... the rules pretty much ceased being D&D because they've kept phasing out the core traits that made it what it was. The inclusion of feats and the blurring of lines between character classes at higher levels by virtue of special abilities and such just homogenizes the characters too much and with the slaying of too many sacred cows under 4e... it's not D&D anymore. The game has moved too far from it's original format for it to have any right to call itself D&D anymore.

leadjunkie

Re: What is the D&D brand?

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Posts: 3711

Nov 20 07 2:39 PM

Necromancer

Welcome back, Ifuritasfan. Your absence has been conspicuous.

**Aspiring Killer DM 221**

Ifuritasfan

Re: What is the D&D brand?

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Posts: 427

Nov 20 07 10:01 PM

Ghast

Heh.. .I've been reading my copy of City of brass.

It's a nice piece of work.

I'm sort of indecisive though about which is better... the Robilar's guide to the City of brass by Kenzer and Co. or the Necro version. Both are outstanding pieces of work.

That and I've been re-reading all my old arduin grimoirs... damn.. for a massively magical game setting... it's just got so many cool little pieces of info in them .

I'm also working on an idea I've had for a new format in RPG mechanics.

The idea is this. You generate stats like in D&D... and there are levels like in D&D, but the various character traits... Better combat progression tables, spells, skills, (no feats) are all purchased from points that are awarded as you advance in level....The thing is... you can just follow a standard build package and advance like you would in a D&D setting... or you can customize your development... so that your fighter (for example) could spend all their build points on hit points instead of advancing their skill in combat (foregoing better hit rolls in favor of endurance training and dodging) or a mage could get a higher level spell added to their repetoir, rather than gain 2 or more lower level ones (concentrating his studies on mastering a harder spell rather than just two lower level ones)

I've looked around and I've not seen anyone do anything like this... and it just seems like such a logical and realistic alternative to the current stiff frameworks that exist.

If you're interested in hearing the idea out in more detail let me know... I want to bounce the concept off people to see what they think of it.

The thing is... I think if I write it up I'll just make it open source and who knows... maybe it'll catch on.

Treebore

Re: What is the D&D brand?

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Posts: 8667

Nov 25 07 8:41 PM

Scribe of the Unending Word

All the 2E "splatbooks" essentially offered this. L5R kind of does this, they have the main school, and starting skills, but you decide how you advance other skills, your attributes, etc...

I think I have played somethintg else even closer.

So the concept has been played with in the past, but I don't know/remember any that did it exactly the way your talking.

GURPS is close too.

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Sessestophelzine

Re: What is the D&D brand?

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Posts: 1145

Nov 30 07 6:40 PM

Evil Archmage

What the D&D Brand is to me:

"Hey, I could act out my fave Grey Mouser stories... Chris could be Fahfrd. But I want it based in Vance's world of magic. This could be fun."

Watching my Original Players handbook wear from brand new hardcover to taped-up paperback over the years.

Players jumping in unison after *finally* killing a devil, and shrieking at the top of their lungs. And me silently cursing them for figuring out a way to do it, yet still appreciating their skill.

The stilted way Gygax writes.

Player characters scrawled in pencil and erased ad nauseum on those blaze orange character sheets.

Erol Otis and Trampier art looking soooooo cool. DCS3 ain't bad neither.

Visiting The Dungeon in Lake Geneva, and only buying dice since I already had all the modules I wanted, bought from the Hobby Horse store that used to be in Brookfield Square near Milwaukee.

Hill Giant Chief, Frost Giant Jarl, Fire Giant King, Descent, Shrine of Kuo-Toa, Vault O'Drow.

Male players with 54" waists roleplaying female drow clerics, and being believable at it ...when you close your eyes.

Learning to use Tangerine Dream, Yes, Pink Floyd and Environments albums as FRP mood music.

Running tournaments at GenCon, and using every trick in the book against the players who are loaded for bear.

Gary Gygax leaning over to me and telling me, "Bob, people will forget you so quickly you won't believe it."

Players asking each other, "?Crap, what do we do now?"

...the Darkmage

Yes, I wish him dead, but... rocket fire from long range... I don't know...
somehow it lacks that... personal touch.
-- the Master, Frontier in Space

Mr Baron

The D&D Experience

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Posts: 247

Feb 3 08 9:10 AM

Ghast

This is a great thread. With 4th ed on the horizon, I have been thinking about this a lot recently.

I think the question is really, "what is the D&D experience?"

To me, it is a lot of what Michael first wrote. Its the chance to be a part of the adventure. When reading a book, you are enjoying reading about someone else's adventure. But with D&D you are the hero, and you have people around you that:

1) Recognize your heoric nature
2) Become bards to your heroic journey
3) Provide a unique shared experience

In a sense D&D gives you a chance to answer the call to adventure. When a game hits on these elements, it is very powerful, and that is why I play D&D.

Setting is not that important. There is something nostalgic about Greyhawk and the Realms, but I am not necessarily tied to that. But the story telling needs to capture a little of that.

As far as mechanics, it needs to be a d20 system. It needs hps, experience points, classes which define abilities, choices of races, that kind of thing. A skills based sytem or percentage based system. I played Role Master, and it just did not have the right feel.

Deepcut

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Posts: 5742

Feb 21 08 9:20 AM

Pimp of the Planes

Why in the world is thios thread stickied? It takes up usable 1st page board space at the top of the screen.

"...In ancient times, hundreds of years before the dawn of history, an ancient race of people... the Druids. No one knows who they were or what they were doing... "

Deepcut

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Posts: 5742

Feb 21 08 11:30 AM

Pimp of the Planes

Also, I would like to note that this thread is stickied twice. Twice the space taken up.

"...In ancient times, hundreds of years before the dawn of history, an ancient race of people... the Druids. No one knows who they were or what they were doing... "

JRRNeiklot

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Posts: 599

Jul 20 08 1:34 PM

Spectre

some good comments here. I'd like to add that fdor it to be D&D, it must allow for the everyman scenario, a common farmerwho rises to become great. Where heroism is defined by deeds not stats.

Lord Prufrock of the Maimed Knights of the Southron Kingdom

C&C Society

Deepcut

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Posts: 5742

Jul 27 08 4:43 AM

Pimp of the Planes

Topic: No one really cares that this post is sticked twice.

Discuss amongst youselves.

"...In ancient times, hundreds of years before the dawn of history, an ancient race of people... the Druids. No one knows who they were or what they were doing... "

Goblin Witchlord

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Posts: 516

Aug 21 08 8:24 AM

Wraith

D&D is more than just having adventures.

It is a tabletop fantasy RPG, with all that entails, and is perhaps the generic one. In the final episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, they're playing D&D, even if the rules are wonky.

D&D can also be distinguished from other tabletop fantasy RPGs in other ways. I don't think the World of Darkness games or LARPing is D&D.

D&D has a very eclectic approach to fantasy, and is much less focused than in other RPGs. It has a class-based system that requires cooperation between members of different classes: fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric. Players can potentially fight any creature that existed in mythology or fantasy literature, and probably will. It is usually assumed that many different faiths, gods, and all the Tolkienesque races coexist in a D&D world. D&D occurs in a magic-rich quasi-historical setting: muzzleloading firearms are in the DMG as an option, not the PHB.

Then there are the things closely identified with the game, such as iconic monsters like the mind flayer and the beholder. You can have lots of games without them, but they shout out: "This, distinctively, is D&D."

There are a few mechanical elements that are part of D&D: Ability scores, Armor Class, hit points, Hit Dice, saving throws (vs death!), and use of the d20 to determine success or failure.

A 9-point alignment system. Elves, dwarves, and kobolds, mighty wizards. Dragons. Dungeons.

Last Edited By: Goblin Witchlord Aug 21 08 8:26 AM. Edited 1 times.

leadjunkie

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Posts: 3711

Aug 11 09 7:32 PM

Necromancer

Here is a really good essay on what D&D is (or isn't). It is a short read worth your time. The take-a-way is whatever YOU are playing is D&D.

Games I am...
Judging - Kingmaker: Adventure Path PFRPG
Playing - Tom Crone's, Order of the Rusty Dagger (home brew), PFRPG; Stan Shinn's, Redmark Campaign in the Barrow Maze, S&W White Box; Ken Mezger's, Myth II (home brew), PFRPG

"Virtual" Type I Demon ('cuz Yuku's lame)

Eryx

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Posts: 12068

Jan 25 10 9:03 AM

Death Knight of the Black Rose

Any RPG can be about the adventures and have heroes, villains, dungeons, dragons and powerful magics. That isn't just D&D alone. For me, the D&D brand is built upon the game system. I have played more roleplaying systems in my twenty three years of roleplaying than I can possibly remember, but for my friends and I it will always be the feel of the game and how the mechanics played into that. There is nothing quite like how 1st, 2nd and 3.X mechanics made D&D what it is. I didn't include 4E there because quite frankly despite some appearences, it is not D&D.

With D&D it is also the monsters. While there will always be imitators, no other game has beholders, mind flayers, chromatic dragons and other iconic monsters as D&D does.

DMing Pathfinder these days.

I'm not asking for characters to be lawful stupid. I want characters who care, who want to be heroes, aren't scared of doing the right thing, and players who try to help make the campaign more heroic.

Remember, the DM is just as important as the players. Players don't always come first.

Joe

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Posts: 102

Jul 26 10 2:08 PM

D&D is a game of the imagination.

The D&D brand is nothing but a label on a book owned by a company.

REAL D&D is played in the mind and belongs to all of us!

Last Edited By: Joe Jul 30 10 11:19 AM. Edited 3 times.

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What is the D&D brand?