Rules Lite 4E?

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TheRavyn	Rules Lite 4E?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 2195 (07/21/09 14:35:06) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Short but interesting discussion over at the OD&D boards here about developing a Rules-Lite version of 4E. I don't know if Necro's "Classic 4E" is stillborn or not, but I think of it as an alternate set of rules more than a rules-lite version, so the concept intrigues me. Pondering the subject, I wonder if it wouldn't be interesting to have only spell-casting classes use "powers" and restrict the martial classes to their class abilities and feats, possibly making their at-wills into class abilities, and chopping monsters hp's by half or so... Ideas? Thoughts? Beyond the Black Gate - Yer Old-School Gaming Blog O.A.F. - Kickin' wimps outta the Treehouse since 2008! My other car is a Flail Snail.
davrion24		#1	[-]
Posts: 399 (07/21/09 16:10:12) Shadow Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Changing classes so that only those that are spellcasters have powers would be a major improvement as far as I am concerned. Powers for the fighter and rogue have never sat well with me, as their abilities are based on skills and training. I would love to see the overreliance on roles be at least blurred if not removed. Never liked rogues being a more effective source of melee damage than a martial class like the fighter.
Wycen Adamantite		#2	[-]
Posts: 2452 (07/21/09 18:18:26) Lich Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Did they suggest dumping all the conditions? Dawning Star: Operation Quick Launch Dawning Star: Helios Rising Hoards
Treebore		#3	[-]
Posts: 8058 (07/22/09 09:33:26) Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I already play rules lite, which is why 4E doesn't excite me enough to buy any further into it. As usual its worth following to see if any good ideas come up for stealing.
Snoring Rock		#4	[-]
Posts: 1092 (07/22/09 12:06:43) Eternally Unspanked Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Why would anyone want to fiddle with the "perfect" iteration of D&D and come up with a rules lite version? Didnt 4e solve the need for a rules lite version? Thats what was claimed. I dont mean to thread crap, but I just dont understand. Seriously looking at the game, anything you leave out, just takes it closer to looking like a rules lite 3.5 game. My take on it, would be to do what Tree does and play C&C. Mind you, I plyed one session of 4e....did not like it. So what I say holds little water. But my point is still just as valid....why come up with a rules lite game when there are so many already out there? I seriously think that if Clark were to go forward with a revised 4e options book or evena 4e-lite, it would not raise enough interest. AD&D is rules lite isnt it? Why not play "real" D&D?
TheRavyn		#5	[-]
Posts: 2196 (07/22/09 12:53:27) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Snoring Rock wrote: AD&D is rules lite isnt it? Why not play "real" D&D? I wouldn't describe AD&D as "rules lite" by any means, though we certainly played it that way bitd (I think we were playing something closer to B/X with AD&D classes and extras, I don't remember ever reading the AD&D combat rules back then). The point of coming up with a "rules lite" 4E as opposed to just using OD&D, at least the point discussed at the OD&D boards, is to have something easy to pick up and run with with little prep time so some of the new 4E adventures and settings can be used without needing to learn a whole new system per se. Not unlike how you can run most 3E adventures with the Microlite20 rules. Beyond the Black Gate - Yer Old-School Gaming Blog O.A.F. - Kickin' wimps outta the Treehouse since 2008! My other car is a Flail Snail.
Treebore		#6	[-]
Posts: 8060 (07/22/09 15:35:03) Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I have played 3E and 4E (only about 60 total hours, though), in comparison to both of those, 1E is very rules lite. Especially if you ignore most of the rules like many groups did, no weapon speed factors and the like. Its amazing how "lite" a game becomes when you get rid of the lists of feats, skills, and powers and no longer have to track them. So I agree with you S. Rock, I just didn't want to bring it up and have people argue the point all over again. I guess we'll have to wait and see how this cat screams now that it is out of the bag.
Snoring Rock		#7	[-]
Posts: 1093 (07/22/09 18:28:00) Eternally Unspanked Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes Tree, you are right. And now that the dust has settled, it seems the same folks looking at other games or desiring change are the same ones who championed 4e as the answer to everything.......even before the official release. sigh I took a real brow-beating (and others) over stating that I was sticking with 3.5.....heresy I tell you! Not pointing fingers at this thread or any poster here, but more and more in this and other forums, 4e fan clubs are breaking up and turning to AD&D or other lighter rules alternatives. I see it at the FLGS, the forums, and among people I know. This move has splintered the market....no; shattered it. I think if ever, this is the time for Troll Lords to snatch up some customers. There are quite a few dissapointed gamers out there looking for something easy and fast to set up and run with. I am not looking for that, so no worries here. But I think the inovators and early adopters were promised something that 4e did not deliver on. If ever there was a good rules lite alternative, it is C&C. I think thats where people need to look. Last Edited By: Snoring Rock 07/23/09 03:36:21. Edited 2 times.
Snoring Rock		#8	[-]
Posts: 1094 (07/23/09 03:45:22) Eternally Unspanked Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	TheRavyn wrote: Short but interesting discussion over at the OD&D boards here about developing a Rules-Lite version of 4E. I don't know if Necro's "Classic 4E" is stillborn or not, but I think of it as an alternate set of rules more than a rules-lite version, so the concept intrigues me. Pondering the subject, I wonder if it wouldn't be interesting to have only spell-casting classes use "powers" and restrict the martial classes to their class abilities and feats, possibly making their at-wills into class abilities, and chopping monsters hp's by half or so... Ideas? Thoughts? Ravyn.....you know this statement is heresy right? You tore me a new rear-end over saying that powers only belonged to spell-casters back during the edition wars. Shame on you. I am happy we agree on something. If Wizards finds out what you are pondering, they are likely to change your version, chase off your 3pp support or even cancel your PDF sales. I read the link you attached and I had a good chuckle. Go back and read it again, but ieth a dorky, squeeky voice. You will laugh so hard. Seriously though.....you know, perhaps what WotC should have done, was produced a rules lite D&D game to begin with. Seriously. More than anything else, the folks who wanted out of 3.5 seem to have a few things in common. The one I see most, is a call for something that can be set up on the fly, that runs fast and that lends itself well to campaign play. This is where I think the conversation should have been focused two years ago. Look how much talk there has been about other systems as of late.
JeffB		#9	[-]
Posts: 452 (07/23/09 04:18:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	While the discussion over at the proboards is interesting, I really don't see the point. People wanted 3E lite, and 3.5 lite, and now 4E lite. When they had lite systems- they wanted more complication- first Supplements I-IV, then AD&D, then UA/WSG/DSG,OA, and then all the 2E splat books, and 2E DM splat books, and then we got player's option. I think the real problem is many gamers are just the kind of people who are never happy and like to complain *Founding Father of O.A.F.- Old school Admirers of Fourth edition* "I feel books like "A Princess of Mars", "The Swords of Lankhmar" and "The Black Company" are far more important to your gaming experience than whether you choose between OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, or D&D4E." ..... TheRavyn *"D&D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules." Tim Kask, Foreword, Eldritch Wizardry 1976*
Snoring Rock		#10	[-]
Posts: 1096 (07/23/09 07:18:15) Eternally Unspanked Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	JeffB wrote: While the discussion over at the proboards is interesting, I really don't see the point. People wanted 3E lite, and 3.5 lite, and now 4E lite. When they had lite systems- they wanted more complication- first Supplements I-IV, then AD&D, then UA/WSG/DSG,OA, and then all the 2E splat books, and 2E DM splat books, and then we got player's option. I think the real problem is many gamers are just the kind of people who are never happy and like to complain Ha.....you get the gold star, it could not have been said better! Thank you Sir JeffB!
TheRavyn		#11	[-]
Posts: 2199 (07/23/09 07:49:45) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	JeffB wrote: I think the real problem is many gamers are just the kind of people who are never happy and like to complain Or, like me, have an unnatural compulsion to constantly fiddle with rules. Beyond the Black Gate - Yer Old-School Gaming Blog O.A.F. - Kickin' wimps outta the Treehouse since 2008! My other car is a Flail Snail.
TheRavyn		#12	[-]
Posts: 2200 (07/23/09 08:02:48) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Whatever the reason, there does appear to be a lot of interest in tinkering around with 4E. In answer to Snore's question of why not just play another edition, I think the answer is probably that there are enough good points with 4E that some folks are willing to do the extra bit of work to customize it to their tastes. The thousand or so posts in the "Classic 4E" forum right here on these boards in just 3 months or so seems ample evidence of that. Contrary to some of my posts in the past, where I offered some supposition that dissatisfaction with 4E may have played a big part in the current resurgence of old-school games, I'm lately more in favor of the theory that it was due to the marvelously well-done retro-clones that have been made available over the last couple years, especially since becoming available in printed form as opposed to .pdf-only. While nostalgia may have played a part in taking a look at these rc's, play experience really demonstrated to a lot of folks just how strong and expansive a solid rules-lite system can be. It is possible that developing a "lighter" version of 4E could be a worthy effort? I'd say yes. Beyond the Black Gate - Yer Old-School Gaming Blog O.A.F. - Kickin' wimps outta the Treehouse since 2008! My other car is a Flail Snail.
Sen the Collector		#13	[-]
Posts: 3206 (07/23/09 08:15:56) Dark Walker of the Planes Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"It is possible that developing a "lighter" version of 4E could be a worthy effort? I'd say yes." Why not? They did several for 3E. I think JeffB pretty much nailed it with his post. Many gamers are just never happy. There are some gamers who are on this quest for the Perfect Rules System which will just never exist. I frankly just don't "get" them at all. Right now we have like 5 or 6 different versions of DnD alone to choose from and combine and/or houserule to our heart's content and that's still not good enough? I just don't get it. Maybe some folks need to just hang it up and admit that they just don't like being a game master.
Snoring Rock		#14	[-]
Posts: 1097 (07/23/09 10:31:22) Eternally Unspanked Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Actually, I think it is pretty cool that there are so many "versions", the problem is that there is no focal point for 3pp support. Supporting all of them where the market for each one is so small is difficult. Now if you like converting like I do, then the more the merrier. I find exception with 4e for this one reason however. It is a different animal. Conversion from 4e does not work well. I think it is becasue of the "rolls" built into it. For that reason I think a light version will be two things. 1. take away so much its no longr 4e. 2. likely broken and unbalanced. I dont say it is impossible, for crying out loud we put men on the moon. I just think it will take so much out that it may be unrecognizeable. But.....what do I care? I play Pathfinder. It is interesting. Besides I am strangely drawn to Ravyn's avatar. Sick just sick. How can you argue any logic with a straight face looking at that avatar?
Treebore		#15	[-]
Posts: 8063 (07/23/09 10:35:03) Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Sen the Collector wrote: "It is possible that developing a "lighter" version of 4E could be a worthy effort? I'd say yes." Why not? They did several for 3E. I think JeffB pretty much nailed it with his post. Many gamers are just never happy. There are some gamers who are on this quest for the Perfect Rules System which will just never exist. I frankly just don't "get" them at all. Right now we have like 5 or 6 different versions of DnD alone to choose from and combine and/or houserule to our heart's content and that's still not good enough? I just don't get it. Maybe some folks need to just hang it up and admit that they just don't like being a game master. Actually I have been fortunate enough to find my "perfect" RPG, it took 20 years, but it was finally produced, and then with my house rules to give the final tweak, I have my perfect set of D&D rules. So I understand the drive to search. ITs just now I have succeeded so am in the "sit back and enjoy" stage of it. So I wish everyone the best of luck in their searches, its a worthwhile search.
JeffB		#16	[-]
Posts: 453 (07/23/09 16:04:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	TheRavyn wrote: JeffB wrote: I think the real problem is many gamers are just the kind of people who are never happy and like to complain Or, like me, have an unnatural compulsion to constantly fiddle with rules. True Dat! I did mean to put another smiley or two in my initial post Al- I don't want you to feel I was being dismissive of your original post. I do think that (and it was the designers intention from the get-go that ) 4E is much easier to tinker with than the 3.x/D20 games- 4E has left plenty up to DM fiat/interpretation, and the nature of the powers/monsters in particular encourages tinkering. 3.X on the other hand had a strong emphasis on closing up every hole. Two totally different schools of thought/styles. I know in MY case, I have felt more creative and had more desire to tinker with 4E than I have since I was a kid w/ BX. I suspect many others feel the same. FWIW I've been going there for quite some time, and AFAIC, Marv runs a helluva tight ship over there at the 74proboards- it's by far the most reasonable Oldschool forum on the net- he should be proud of the community he has fostered. At any rate, I still stand by my original statement- most gamers are hard as hell to please and will find something to torch someone/something for at the stake, no matter what *Founding Father of O.A.F.- Old school Admirers of Fourth edition* "I feel books like "A Princess of Mars", "The Swords of Lankhmar" and "The Black Company" are far more important to your gaming experience than whether you choose between OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, or D&D4E." ..... TheRavyn *"D&D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules." Tim Kask, Foreword, Eldritch Wizardry 1976* Last Edited By: JeffB 07/23/09 16:06:44. Edited 1 times.
Dark Mistress		#17	[-]
Posts: 1949 (07/23/09 17:38:00) Dominatrix Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I like to fiddle with rules, I have never run anything with out house rules in my whole life. Well maybe when i first started many moons ago. As for the original question. I don't know, i didn't play 4e long enough to get a good feel for what the game could lose to speed things up or what would be good to change. Well other than marking by the tanks, just hated that rule. That and it seemed like you knew the outcome of the fight long before it ended, so maybe a drop in hp is needed or something. I think it is always worth doing, the real question is other than doing it for your home games aka house rules. Is there a market big enough for a company to do it. But thats about all I have to offer I only played 4e for about 3 months for about 10 game sessions. Then another one shot that lasted like 3 game sessions, yeah I know not a one shot but it was just a single adventure. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin For MSG - I am sure you can teach a monkey to scratch his butt, just tell him to watch you. After a couple of hours he should be a master at it.
Geleg		#18	[-]
Posts: 1549 (07/24/09 07:55:09) Lurker Above Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	color me mystified by the idea of 4e lite, as well. I do respect the gamer's inherent need to fiddle with rules, and on that level I have no problem with anyone 'lightening' 4e or 'complicating' 1e or whatever. It's just that it seems to me that lots ... and I mean lots! ... of excellent rules-lite D&D versions already exist. If I were a 4e person who wanted rules lite, I'd play one of those. It's like AD&D and Rolemaster for me. If I wanted complexity, I'd play Rolemaster. If I want (relative) simplicity, I'll play AD&D (or a clone, or C&C, etc etc). No need to formally create a rules-lite Rolemaster. At least no need for me to do so. There are already lots of great rules-lite games out there. But I'm clearly not the target audience, anyway!!!
JoeGKushner		#19	[-]
Posts: 7521 (07/25/09 00:42:54) Demi Lich Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Not for me thanks. I can see the value in it for people who just want to sit down and play. 4e, much moreso than any edition, has turned the need to actually read and understand the way the game plays way up. The actual complexity of the rules is not that much higher unless you are incable of simple math. The fact that there are no sit down and play classes though, that even 3e had to a limited degree with the fighter, can be seen as a 'barrier'. I think though, that those who read the rules, play the game, and know how things work in tandum with the now game statted roles, may be getting a lot more out of the new game. Certainly not up everyone's ally though. e-bay Sales Updated 3/24/2009: , Miniatures, Ultramodern Firearms, The Hunt d20 setting, Legends of Excalibur d20 setting, Legends of the Samurai d20 setting, Midnight books, 4e Points of Light, and more!

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