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My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

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I was sure Paizo was going to give as good a price as possible on their new 600 page full color Pathfinder RPG PDF, but I did not expect, or even dream, that it would only be TEN DOLLARS!!!!

10 frikkin dollars!

Ten!!'

Stunning!

Plus PF RPG subscribers get it free. Those who get the subscriber discount, but are NOT subscribing to the RPG line still get their 15% off, so $8.50 for a 600 page full color core rule book.

Abso frikkin lutely STUNNING!

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

Yeah I mentioned it in the Pathfinders off to printers thread earlier. Wasn't sure if I should make a whole new thread about it. Moot point now.

It is a very cheaply priced PDF for a book of this size.

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

Dark Mistress wrote:
Yeah I mentioned it in the Pathfinders off to printers thread earlier. Wasn't sure if I should make a whole new thread about it. Moot point now.

It is a very cheaply priced PDF for a book of this size.

I think that is exactly why it deserves its own thread. I knew Paizo was going to make the PDF as low priced as they dare, but I had no idea, or guesses, that they would price a PDF of a $50 book for only $10. $25 would have met my best expectations, $10 blows those expectations out of the water.

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

I think anyone who pays MORE than $10 for a PDF -- any PDF, not just Paizo stuff -- is off their rocker. But that's just me.

I don't mean that to be offensive, I've just never seen the value in the way PDFs are priced. Granted, $10 for this one is a very reasonable deal compared to most.

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

Prismatic DM wrote:
I think anyone who pays MORE than $10 for a PDF -- any PDF, not just Paizo stuff -- is off their rocker. But that's just me. I don't mean that to be offensive, I've just never seen the value in the way PDFs are priced. Granted, $10 for this one is a very reasonable deal compared to most.

I'll second that. I'm totally not a PDF fan, so the bigger the book is, the more useless it is because of what it will take/cost to print it. I found that out with Castle WhiteRock and the DCC GAZ. $5 or so is my personal threshold for PDFs and I only buy them in extreme cases and try to limit them to easily printed products.

But I guess if you are one of those types who uses a computer at the game-table, thats a good deal. I've got the book on pre-order through Amazon for around $38, IIRC. Dead trees for me please

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

Prismatic DM wrote:
I think anyone who pays MORE than $10 for a PDF -- any PDF, not just Paizo stuff -- is off their rocker.

Yeah, I agree. (And I note that many systems/books are available in print for $$$ but with *free* PDFs: 400 pg OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, BFRPG, Monsters of Myth, etc.)

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

JeffB wrote:
But I guess if you are one of those types who uses a computer at the game-table, thats a good deal.

Exactly! And if you are one who uses a computer away from the table to organize, create and document your game they are very useful. Searching is reduced to seconds. I have all my PDf's, scans, pictures, etc on a thumb drive so I can refer to anything I need as long as I have access to a computer. I prefer to have both book and PDF for my most used material. To each his own.

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

As a slight tangent to the PDF thing-

I love CRPGs (well some of them- I play around with NWN often, for example, and fondly played the Gold box games, and Baldur's Gate /Icewind Dale,and whatnot) but when it comes to FTF gaming, the last thing I want to play is a RPG that makes me rely on a computer- for anything. Not Character generators, encounter generators, dice rollers, prep of any kind. etc etc. Thats a line I won't personally cross- I'd rather not play/DM than deal with that. Back in 2002, I played in a group where 2 of the 5 people (including the DM) constantly had their nose in a laptop reading off things, referencing, etc etc. I left after a few sessions. I won't begrudge anyone else who prefers modern technology at the table but to me it's totally anathema to the idea of sitting a round the table withfriends, books and rolling some dice- I guess I'm just old fashioned that way :shrug:

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

I've have to say this might be perfect for my group where maybe 2 or 3 of us will commit to buying the print book. The rest could use the PDFs to create their characters while we have the print copies as references at the table.

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

JeffB wrote:
As a slight tangent to the PDF thing-

Back in 2002, I played in a group where 2 of the 5 people (including the DM) constantly had their nose in a laptop reading off things, referencing, etc etc. I left after a few sessions.

I would find that off putting too. Generally, when playing table top, we have one lap top up that everyone can share. We reference the SRD, player hand outs, maps, pictures, etc.

I play on-line twice a week, so obviously a computer is necessary. PDFs are real handy for that. You cut and paste text into the chat box. As an aside, I enjoy my table top game and there is no real substitute for it. however, the on-line games are interesting in their own right. It is very immersing and I really only know my fellow players in character.

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

Philotomy Jurament wrote:

Prismatic DM wrote:
I think anyone who pays MORE than $10 for a PDF -- any PDF, not just Paizo stuff -- is off their rocker.

Yeah, I agree. (And I note that many systems/books are available in print for $$$ but with *free* PDFs: 400 pg OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, BFRPG, Monsters of Myth, etc.)

Yep, and the ONLY reason they are free is to enable them to avoid copyright lawsuits. If they weren't so concerned about that they would charge even for the PDF's, so its not like they are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, its to avoid legal battles with WOTC. Simple as that. If they wwere to start selling thsoe PDF's, and the Lulu books, at a profit, I bet they would be slapped with lawsuits within a week of WOTC discovering the change.

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

Treebore wrote:

Philotomy Jurament wrote:

Prismatic DM wrote:
I think anyone who pays MORE than $10 for a PDF -- any PDF, not just Paizo stuff -- is off their rocker.

Yeah, I agree. (And I note that many systems/books are available in print for $$$ but with *free* PDFs: 400 pg OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, BFRPG, Monsters of Myth, etc.)

Yep, and the ONLY reason they are free is to enable them to avoid copyright lawsuits. If they weren't so concerned about that they would charge even for the PDF's, so its not like they are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, its to avoid legal battles with WOTC. Simple as that. If they wwere to start selling thsoe PDF's, and the Lulu books, at a profit, I bet they would be slapped with lawsuits within a week of WOTC discovering the change.

What? Apparently you are not aware that Swords and Wizardry (and others) are available as PODs through LuLu and will soon be carried print through regular distribution channels.

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

I am perfectly aware. and aware that OSRIC, etc... is not sold at a profit. Now when Swords and Wizardry goes out into the retail channel, which I also knew about, that will be interesting to watch. Then again, since I own the originals, and a print copy of S&W, I think they are different enough to viably deny copyright infringement. I am no Judge, or lawyer, for that matter, but I am far more intimately familiar with copyright, and trademark law than most people, but I think they are distinct enough to make a go of it, now the question is will WOTC challenge them?

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

Treebore wrote:

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
*free* PDFs: 400 pg OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, BFRPG, Monsters of Myth, etc.)

Yep, and the ONLY reason they are free is to enable them to avoid copyright lawsuits. If they weren't so concerned about that they would charge even for the PDF's, so its not like they are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, its to avoid legal battles with WOTC. Simple as that. If they wwere to start selling thsoe PDF's, and the Lulu books, at a profit, I bet they would be slapped with lawsuits within a week of WOTC discovering the change.

Matt, Dan, and Stuart most certainly did put these together, and offer them for free, out of the kindness of their hearts, out of love for the roots of D&D and the desire to share it with others, promote the production of new play aids, and preserve them for posterity. Also, all three adhere faithfully to the OGL, with nary a carrion crawler nor illithid to be found.

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

Treebore wrote:
the question is will WOTC challenge them?

To what end? I'd be more worried about Pathfinder, its likely to register more of a blip on WotC's sales figures.

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

TheRavyn wrote:

Treebore wrote:

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
*free* PDFs: 400 pg OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, BFRPG, Monsters of Myth, etc.)

Yep, and the ONLY reason they are free is to enable them to avoid copyright lawsuits. If they weren't so concerned about that they would charge even for the PDF's, so its not like they are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, its to avoid legal battles with WOTC. Simple as that. If they wwere to start selling thsoe PDF's, and the Lulu books, at a profit, I bet they would be slapped with lawsuits within a week of WOTC discovering the change.

Matt, Dan, and Stuart most certainly did put these together, and offer them for free, out of the kindness of their hearts, out of love for the roots of D&D and the desire to share it with others, promote the production of new play aids, and preserve them for posterity. Also, all three adhere faithfully to the OGL, with nary a carrion crawler nor illithid to be found.

Oh, I am sure love of the game was a good part fo the motivation, but legal issues are why they offered it up for free. See, I read many of their posts as well, both public and in their private chat rooms.

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

TheRavyn wrote:

Treebore wrote:
the question is will WOTC challenge them?

To what end? I'd be more worried about Pathfinder, its likely to register more of a blip on WotC's sales figures.

I don't think PF has anything to worry about since it really doesnt "straddle" the imaginary line between "legal" and "quite possibly not legal'. PF is not much different than many other OGL games. I would think that Paizo and WOTC staff have a close enough relationship where WOTC would have said "c'mon guys, you know better" if there was likely to be an issue.

The fact that OSRIC/LL/S&W are more direct "lifts"/get into some very grey legal area and are now seeing a more varied distribution other than POD from Lulu (Amazon, etc) AND being sold for profit may tempt WOTC to re-examine the legalities. BFRPG has little to worry about, IMO as Chris is selling those books for cost/no profit. As much as love my retroclones, If I were WOTC, I'd at least have my legal team taking a closer look at LL as it seems to be the game that is by far the most direct "lift" (no malice intended, just saying LL is VERY faithful to the rule-set that inspired it).

Barring all that- there is the "moral issue" of some retroclone authors making money by re-painting the house that Gary & Co. actually built. I wonder what Gary would think seeing all these retroclones now?

Should be interesting to see what happens if the OSR starts making some real headway (barring internet fandom)

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

leadjunkie wrote:

JeffB wrote:
As a slight tangent to the PDF thing-

Back in 2002, I played in a group where 2 of the 5 people (including the DM) constantly had their nose in a laptop reading off things, referencing, etc etc. I left after a few sessions.
I would find that off putting too. Generally, when playing table top, we have one lap top up that everyone can share. We reference the SRD, player hand outs, maps, pictures, etc.

I play on-line twice a week, so obviously a computer is necessary. PDFs are real handy for that. You cut and paste text into the chat box. As an aside, I enjoy my table top game and there is no real substitute for it. however, the on-line games are interesting in their own right. It is very immersing and I really only know my fellow players in character.

For sure I'd have no issue with the computer used during online play!

In fact, the now "likely to be vaporware" Virtual Table Top is something I was VERY much looking forward to using with 4E - The absence of the VTT is the main reason I've not subscribed to DDI (crappy DUNGEON adventures don't help either- but then again I don't expect much from WOTC proper on that front and haven't since the abominations that were the 25th anniversary remakes circa 1999).

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

Yeah, PF is clearly protected by the OGL. I am not sure there would even be a case against OSRIC, etc.... I know Clark claimed, and still thinks, OSRIC is a poisoned fish. At least the last thing I remember seeing him post about it. However OSRIC should also be protected by the OGL just as much as any other OGL derived game.

Personally I would think if OSRIC was illegal WOTC would have already done something. So personally I think they would be fine publishing for profit, but like I said, I am no legal expert, just my opinion on how I would interpret the laws as I understand them.

My Recent Posts · (06/27/09

JeffB wrote:
The fact that OSRIC/LL/S&W are more direct "lifts"/get into some very grey legal area and are now seeing a more varied distribution other than POD from Lulu (Amazon, etc) AND being sold for profit may tempt WOTC to re-examine the legalities. BFRPG has little to worry about, IMO as Chris is selling those books for cost/no profit. As much as love my retroclones, If I were WOTC, I'd at least have my legal team taking a closer look at LL as it seems to be the game that is by far the most direct "lift" (no malice intended, just saying LL is VERY faithful to the rule-set that inspired it).

Barring all that- there is the "moral issue" of some retroclone authors making money by re-painting the house that Gary & Co. actually built. I wonder what Gary would think seeing all these retroclones now?

Should be interesting to see what happens if the OSR starts making some real headway (barring internet fandom)

I don't know where the idea that WotC could have more grounds for suing old-school games for OGL infringement than any other games came from. I'll have to do some detective work and see if I can locate the roots of this myth. Clark has stated this a few times too, iirc, but has been vague on his reasons, which makes it kind of hard to refute

OSRIC's whole purpose was to enable the creation of new adventure's compatible with AD&D. Look at section 7 of the OGL:

7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any
Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility,
except as expressly licensed in another, independent
Agreement with the owner of each element of that
Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or
co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark
in conjunction with a work containing Open Game
Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent
Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or
Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in
Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to
the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any
Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain
all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.

What this means is you can't slap "for use with AD&D" on the cover, and if you accidentally reference "Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer" in it, you're in trouble. OSRIC was built from the ground up around the SRD, so if you design your adventure using it, instead of your AD&D books, and publish it, you have a product that is OGL-approved and yet still (unofficially) AD&D compatible.

My Recent Posts · (06/27/09

I'm not about to debate the legalities of retroclones as IANAL- I'll save that for them- the fact remains that there are people who are intimately more familiar with law than I am that think it's not terribly legal, and those (who usually have an "investment" in them somehow) who feel they are completely legal. Thats enough for me to be doubtful (despite the fact I enjoy the snot out of them).

What I'm trying to say is, If the OSR movement starts to become more than the pimple on a gnat's a$$ it is at this time, WOTC may decide to probe further and see if they can do something about it by going to court- Maybe won't help them at all, but they can afford to go-many times over. I'd reckon most of the OSR publishers can't. WOTC doesn't necc have to WIN a suit, they can "win" by making things difficult financially for the publishers if they can make a case and drag it out (whether completely legit or not).

I may be wrong and I hope we never see it come to that, but thats all I've got to say about that (/endforestgumpmode)

Author	Comment
Treebore	HOLY FRAK PAIZO!	Lead	[-]
Posts: 8035 (06/26/09 00:04:27) Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None I was sure Paizo was going to give as good a price as possible on their new 600 page full color Pathfinder RPG PDF, but I did not expect, or even dream, that it would only be TEN DOLLARS!!!! 10 frikkin dollars! Ten!!' Stunning! Plus PF RPG subscribers get it free. Those who get the subscriber discount, but are NOT subscribing to the RPG line still get their 15% off, so $8.50 for a 600 page full color core rule book. Abso frikkin lutely STUNNING!
Dark Mistress		#1	[-]
Posts: 1915 (06/26/09 01:34:50) Dominatrix Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yeah I mentioned it in the Pathfinders off to printers thread earlier. Wasn't sure if I should make a whole new thread about it. Moot point now. It is a very cheaply priced PDF for a book of this size. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin For MSG - I am sure you can teach a monkey to scratch his butt, just tell him to watch you. After a couple of hours he should be a master at it.
Treebore		#2	[-]
Posts: 8036 (06/26/09 02:39:12) Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dark Mistress wrote: Yeah I mentioned it in the Pathfinders off to printers thread earlier. Wasn't sure if I should make a whole new thread about it. Moot point now. It is a very cheaply priced PDF for a book of this size. I think that is exactly why it deserves its own thread. I knew Paizo was going to make the PDF as low priced as they dare, but I had no idea, or guesses, that they would price a PDF of a $50 book for only $10. $25 would have met my best expectations, $10 blows those expectations out of the water.
Prismatic DM		#3	[-]
Posts: 725 (06/26/09 02:57:39) Wight Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think anyone who pays MORE than $10 for a PDF -- any PDF, not just Paizo stuff -- is off their rocker. But that's just me. I don't mean that to be offensive, I've just never seen the value in the way PDFs are priced. Granted, $10 for this one is a very reasonable deal compared to most. Old-School D&D Blog: The Borderlands 4e campaign at Epic Words: Wastelands of Kreth OAF badge #003. Old-school Admirers of Fourth edition I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer. -- Douglas Adams Last Edited By: Prismatic DM 06/26/09 03:49:49. Edited 1 times.
JeffB		#4	[-]
Posts: 422 (06/26/09 04:41:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Prismatic DM wrote: I think anyone who pays MORE than $10 for a PDF -- any PDF, not just Paizo stuff -- is off their rocker. But that's just me. I don't mean that to be offensive, I've just never seen the value in the way PDFs are priced. Granted, $10 for this one is a very reasonable deal compared to most. I'll second that. I'm totally not a PDF fan, so the bigger the book is, the more useless it is because of what it will take/cost to print it. I found that out with Castle WhiteRock and the DCC GAZ. $5 or so is my personal threshold for PDFs and I only buy them in extreme cases and try to limit them to easily printed products. But I guess if you are one of those types who uses a computer at the game-table, thats a good deal. I've got the book on pre-order through Amazon for around $38, IIRC. Dead trees for me please *Founding Father of O.A.F.- Old school Admirers of Fourth edition* "I feel books like "A Princess of Mars", "The Swords of Lankhmar" and "The Black Company" are far more important to your gaming experience than whether you choose between OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, or D&D4E." ..... TheRavyn *"D&D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules." Tim Kask, Foreword, Eldritch Wizardry 1976*
Philotomy Jurament		#5	[-]
Posts: 560 (06/26/09 04:50:31) Old School Cool Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Prismatic DM wrote: I think anyone who pays MORE than $10 for a PDF -- any PDF, not just Paizo stuff -- is off their rocker. Yeah, I agree. (And I note that many systems/books are available in print for $$$ but with free PDFs: 400 pg OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, BFRPG, Monsters of Myth, etc.) Philotomy's OD&D Musings B4 Lost City Campaign
leadjunkie		#6	[-]
Posts: 2671 (06/26/09 06:35:04) Necromancer Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	JeffB wrote: But I guess if you are one of those types who uses a computer at the game-table, thats a good deal. Exactly! And if you are one who uses a computer away from the table to organize, create and document your game they are very useful. Searching is reduced to seconds. I have all my PDf's, scans, pictures, etc on a thumb drive so I can refer to anything I need as long as I have access to a computer. I prefer to have both book and PDF for my most used material. To each his own. Games I am... Judging - Wilderlands: The Pagan Coast Playing - Damien the Bloodfeaster's Red Hand of Doom & kenmckinney's Savage Tide "Virtual" Lich ('cuz Yuku's lame)
JeffB		#7	[-]
Posts: 423 (06/26/09 07:38:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	As a slight tangent to the PDF thing- I love CRPGs (well some of them- I play around with NWN often, for example, and fondly played the Gold box games, and Baldur's Gate /Icewind Dale,and whatnot) but when it comes to FTF gaming, the last thing I want to play is a RPG that makes me rely on a computer- for anything. Not Character generators, encounter generators, dice rollers, prep of any kind. etc etc. Thats a line I won't personally cross- I'd rather not play/DM than deal with that. Back in 2002, I played in a group where 2 of the 5 people (including the DM) constantly had their nose in a laptop reading off things, referencing, etc etc. I left after a few sessions. I won't begrudge anyone else who prefers modern technology at the table but to me it's totally anathema to the idea of sitting a round the table withfriends, books and rolling some dice- I guess I'm just old fashioned that way :shrug: *Founding Father of O.A.F.- Old school Admirers of Fourth edition* "I feel books like "A Princess of Mars", "The Swords of Lankhmar" and "The Black Company" are far more important to your gaming experience than whether you choose between OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, or D&D4E." ..... TheRavyn *"D&D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules." Tim Kask, Foreword, Eldritch Wizardry 1976*
Elodan		#8	[-]
Posts: 115 (06/26/09 08:43:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I've have to say this might be perfect for my group where maybe 2 or 3 of us will commit to buying the print book. The rest could use the PDFs to create their characters while we have the print copies as references at the table. Large chance of death, small chance of success, what are we waiting for!
leadjunkie		#9	[-]
Posts: 2672 (06/26/09 10:52:59) Necromancer Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	JeffB wrote: As a slight tangent to the PDF thing- Back in 2002, I played in a group where 2 of the 5 people (including the DM) constantly had their nose in a laptop reading off things, referencing, etc etc. I left after a few sessions. I would find that off putting too. Generally, when playing table top, we have one lap top up that everyone can share. We reference the SRD, player hand outs, maps, pictures, etc. I play on-line twice a week, so obviously a computer is necessary. PDFs are real handy for that. You cut and paste text into the chat box. As an aside, I enjoy my table top game and there is no real substitute for it. however, the on-line games are interesting in their own right. It is very immersing and I really only know my fellow players in character. Games I am... Judging - Wilderlands: The Pagan Coast Playing - Damien the Bloodfeaster's Red Hand of Doom & kenmckinney's Savage Tide "Virtual" Lich ('cuz Yuku's lame)
Treebore		#10	[-]
Posts: 8037 (06/26/09 12:11:34) Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Philotomy Jurament wrote: Prismatic DM wrote: I think anyone who pays MORE than $10 for a PDF -- any PDF, not just Paizo stuff -- is off their rocker. Yeah, I agree. (And I note that many systems/books are available in print for $$$ but with free PDFs: 400 pg OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, BFRPG, Monsters of Myth, etc.) Yep, and the ONLY reason they are free is to enable them to avoid copyright lawsuits. If they weren't so concerned about that they would charge even for the PDF's, so its not like they are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, its to avoid legal battles with WOTC. Simple as that. If they wwere to start selling thsoe PDF's, and the Lulu books, at a profit, I bet they would be slapped with lawsuits within a week of WOTC discovering the change.
leadjunkie		#11	[-]
Posts: 2674 (06/26/09 12:38:38) Necromancer Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Treebore wrote: Philotomy Jurament wrote: Prismatic DM wrote: I think anyone who pays MORE than $10 for a PDF -- any PDF, not just Paizo stuff -- is off their rocker. Yeah, I agree. (And I note that many systems/books are available in print for $$$ but with free PDFs: 400 pg OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, BFRPG, Monsters of Myth, etc.) Yep, and the ONLY reason they are free is to enable them to avoid copyright lawsuits. If they weren't so concerned about that they would charge even for the PDF's, so its not like they are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, its to avoid legal battles with WOTC. Simple as that. If they wwere to start selling thsoe PDF's, and the Lulu books, at a profit, I bet they would be slapped with lawsuits within a week of WOTC discovering the change. What? Apparently you are not aware that Swords and Wizardry (and others) are available as PODs through LuLu and will soon be carried print through regular distribution channels. Games I am... Judging - Wilderlands: The Pagan Coast Playing - Damien the Bloodfeaster's Red Hand of Doom & kenmckinney's Savage Tide "Virtual" Lich ('cuz Yuku's lame)
Treebore		#12	[-]
Posts: 8038 (06/26/09 12:48:31) Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I am perfectly aware. and aware that OSRIC, etc... is not sold at a profit. Now when Swords and Wizardry goes out into the retail channel, which I also knew about, that will be interesting to watch. Then again, since I own the originals, and a print copy of S&W, I think they are different enough to viably deny copyright infringement. I am no Judge, or lawyer, for that matter, but I am far more intimately familiar with copyright, and trademark law than most people, but I think they are distinct enough to make a go of it, now the question is will WOTC challenge them?
TheRavyn		#13	[-]
Posts: 2175 (06/26/09 15:26:25) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Treebore wrote: Philotomy Jurament wrote: free PDFs: 400 pg OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, BFRPG, Monsters of Myth, etc.) Yep, and the ONLY reason they are free is to enable them to avoid copyright lawsuits. If they weren't so concerned about that they would charge even for the PDF's, so its not like they are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, its to avoid legal battles with WOTC. Simple as that. If they wwere to start selling thsoe PDF's, and the Lulu books, at a profit, I bet they would be slapped with lawsuits within a week of WOTC discovering the change. Matt, Dan, and Stuart most certainly did put these together, and offer them for free, out of the kindness of their hearts, out of love for the roots of D&D and the desire to share it with others, promote the production of new play aids, and preserve them for posterity. Also, all three adhere faithfully to the OGL, with nary a carrion crawler nor illithid to be found. Beyond the Black Gate - Yer Old-School Gaming Blog O.A.F. - Kickin' wimps outta the Treehouse since 2008! My other car is a Flail Snail.
TheRavyn		#14	[-]
Posts: 2176 (06/26/09 15:28:30) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Treebore wrote: the question is will WOTC challenge them? To what end? I'd be more worried about Pathfinder, its likely to register more of a blip on WotC's sales figures. Beyond the Black Gate - Yer Old-School Gaming Blog O.A.F. - Kickin' wimps outta the Treehouse since 2008! My other car is a Flail Snail.
Treebore		#15	[-]
Posts: 8039 (06/26/09 17:42:21) Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	TheRavyn wrote: Treebore wrote: Philotomy Jurament wrote: free PDFs: 400 pg OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, BFRPG, Monsters of Myth, etc.) Yep, and the ONLY reason they are free is to enable them to avoid copyright lawsuits. If they weren't so concerned about that they would charge even for the PDF's, so its not like they are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, its to avoid legal battles with WOTC. Simple as that. If they wwere to start selling thsoe PDF's, and the Lulu books, at a profit, I bet they would be slapped with lawsuits within a week of WOTC discovering the change. Matt, Dan, and Stuart most certainly did put these together, and offer them for free, out of the kindness of their hearts, out of love for the roots of D&D and the desire to share it with others, promote the production of new play aids, and preserve them for posterity. Also, all three adhere faithfully to the OGL, with nary a carrion crawler nor illithid to be found. Oh, I am sure love of the game was a good part fo the motivation, but legal issues are why they offered it up for free. See, I read many of their posts as well, both public and in their private chat rooms.
JeffB		#16	[-]
Posts: 424 (06/26/09 17:55:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	TheRavyn wrote: Treebore wrote: the question is will WOTC challenge them? To what end? I'd be more worried about Pathfinder, its likely to register more of a blip on WotC's sales figures. I don't think PF has anything to worry about since it really doesnt "straddle" the imaginary line between "legal" and "quite possibly not legal'. PF is not much different than many other OGL games. I would think that Paizo and WOTC staff have a close enough relationship where WOTC would have said "c'mon guys, you know better" if there was likely to be an issue. The fact that OSRIC/LL/S&W are more direct "lifts"/get into some very grey legal area and are now seeing a more varied distribution other than POD from Lulu (Amazon, etc) AND being sold for profit may tempt WOTC to re-examine the legalities. BFRPG has little to worry about, IMO as Chris is selling those books for cost/no profit. As much as love my retroclones, If I were WOTC, I'd at least have my legal team taking a closer look at LL as it seems to be the game that is by far the most direct "lift" (no malice intended, just saying LL is VERY faithful to the rule-set that inspired it). Barring all that- there is the "moral issue" of some retroclone authors making money by re-painting the house that Gary & Co. actually built. I wonder what Gary would think seeing all these retroclones now? Should be interesting to see what happens if the OSR starts making some real headway (barring internet fandom) *Founding Father of O.A.F.- Old school Admirers of Fourth edition* "I feel books like "A Princess of Mars", "The Swords of Lankhmar" and "The Black Company" are far more important to your gaming experience than whether you choose between OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, or D&D4E." ..... TheRavyn *"D&D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules." Tim Kask, Foreword, Eldritch Wizardry 1976*
JeffB		#17	[-]
Posts: 425 (06/26/09 18:11:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	leadjunkie wrote: JeffB wrote: As a slight tangent to the PDF thing- Back in 2002, I played in a group where 2 of the 5 people (including the DM) constantly had their nose in a laptop reading off things, referencing, etc etc. I left after a few sessions. I would find that off putting too. Generally, when playing table top, we have one lap top up that everyone can share. We reference the SRD, player hand outs, maps, pictures, etc. I play on-line twice a week, so obviously a computer is necessary. PDFs are real handy for that. You cut and paste text into the chat box. As an aside, I enjoy my table top game and there is no real substitute for it. however, the on-line games are interesting in their own right. It is very immersing and I really only know my fellow players in character. For sure I'd have no issue with the computer used during online play! In fact, the now "likely to be vaporware" Virtual Table Top is something I was VERY much looking forward to using with 4E - The absence of the VTT is the main reason I've not subscribed to DDI (crappy DUNGEON adventures don't help either- but then again I don't expect much from WOTC proper on that front and haven't since the abominations that were the 25th anniversary remakes circa 1999). *Founding Father of O.A.F.- Old school Admirers of Fourth edition* "I feel books like "A Princess of Mars", "The Swords of Lankhmar" and "The Black Company" are far more important to your gaming experience than whether you choose between OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, or D&D4E." ..... TheRavyn *"D&D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules." Tim Kask, Foreword, Eldritch Wizardry 1976*
Treebore		#18	[-]
Posts: 8040 (06/26/09 20:32:08) Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yeah, PF is clearly protected by the OGL. I am not sure there would even be a case against OSRIC, etc.... I know Clark claimed, and still thinks, OSRIC is a poisoned fish. At least the last thing I remember seeing him post about it. However OSRIC should also be protected by the OGL just as much as any other OGL derived game. Personally I would think if OSRIC was illegal WOTC would have already done something. So personally I think they would be fine publishing for profit, but like I said, I am no legal expert, just my opinion on how I would interpret the laws as I understand them.
TheRavyn		#19	[-]
Posts: 2178 (06/27/09 06:08:53) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	JeffB wrote: The fact that OSRIC/LL/S&W are more direct "lifts"/get into some very grey legal area and are now seeing a more varied distribution other than POD from Lulu (Amazon, etc) AND being sold for profit may tempt WOTC to re-examine the legalities. BFRPG has little to worry about, IMO as Chris is selling those books for cost/no profit. As much as love my retroclones, If I were WOTC, I'd at least have my legal team taking a closer look at LL as it seems to be the game that is by far the most direct "lift" (no malice intended, just saying LL is VERY faithful to the rule-set that inspired it). Barring all that- there is the "moral issue" of some retroclone authors making money by re-painting the house that Gary & Co. actually built. I wonder what Gary would think seeing all these retroclones now? Should be interesting to see what happens if the OSR starts making some real headway (barring internet fandom) I don't know where the idea that WotC could have more grounds for suing old-school games for OGL infringement than any other games came from. I'll have to do some detective work and see if I can locate the roots of this myth. Clark has stated this a few times too, iirc, but has been vague on his reasons, which makes it kind of hard to refute OSRIC's whole purpose was to enable the creation of new adventure's compatible with AD&D. Look at section 7 of the OGL: 7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity. What this means is you can't slap "for use with AD&D" on the cover, and if you accidentally reference "Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer" in it, you're in trouble. OSRIC was built from the ground up around the SRD, so if you design your adventure using it, instead of your AD&D books, and publish it, you have a product that is OGL-approved and yet still (unofficially) AD&D compatible. Beyond the Black Gate - Yer Old-School Gaming Blog O.A.F. - Kickin' wimps outta the Treehouse since 2008! My other car is a Flail Snail.
JeffB		#20	[-]
Posts: 426 (06/27/09 09:24:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm not about to debate the legalities of retroclones as IANAL- I'll save that for them- the fact remains that there are people who are intimately more familiar with law than I am that think it's not terribly legal, and those (who usually have an "investment" in them somehow) who feel they are completely legal. Thats enough for me to be doubtful (despite the fact I enjoy the snot out of them). What I'm trying to say is, If the OSR movement starts to become more than the pimple on a gnat's a$$ it is at this time, WOTC may decide to probe further and see if they can do something about it by going to court- Maybe won't help them at all, but they can afford to go-many times over. I'd reckon most of the OSR publishers can't. WOTC doesn't necc have to WIN a suit, they can "win" by making things difficult financially for the publishers if they can make a case and drag it out (whether completely legit or not). I may be wrong and I hope we never see it come to that, but thats all I've got to say about that (/endforestgumpmode) *Founding Father of O.A.F.- Old school Admirers of Fourth edition* "I feel books like "A Princess of Mars", "The Swords of Lankhmar" and "The Black Company" are far more important to your gaming experience than whether you choose between OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, or D&D4E." ..... TheRavyn *"D&D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules." Tim Kask, Foreword, Eldritch Wizardry 1976* Last Edited By: JeffB 06/27/09 09:26:36. Edited 1 times.

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