I have found several critical problems with healing surges. Or rather, with their triggers. ("Triggers" meaning anything from Second Wind to Healing
Word - things that allow you to use a surge).
Not sure this applies to 4E Classic, but as I am speaking to a crowd of brilliant minds who are also open to change, I thought to hear your opinion.
1) There ought to be a limit to the number of surges you can use in any given encounter.
2) The consequence for running out of surges is very blunt indeed, and could well be represented by something less severe and more interesting
"1) There ought to be a limit to the number of surges you can use in any given encounter. "
I know many of you won't have experienced any problems, but the fact remains: the game contains no inherent limitations on how many surges you can use in any given encounter. If you have ten triggers, you can use ten surges.
This effectively makes you invulnerable, especially as many such triggers are very easy to apply (Healing Word, for instance, is only a minor action and can be used up to five squares away) and very flexible (meaning that no matter which PC is targeted by the monsters, these triggers can be used on him).
I know your reaction - "if any party is mad enough to get so many surges, by all means let them". But this completely destroys any trace of excitement and drama in an encounter. You'll realize this once your players see that getting more healing is as cheap as getting that bonus to fire damage or opportunity attacks or whatever and much much more useful in the long run.
If the game limited triggers per character per encounter in some way it would help immensely. Because PCs won't have access to gobs of hit points, monsters don't need to be "hard encounters" just to threaten their lives (which is the basis of any combat excitement).
As an aside to this: I like Second Wind as a mechanic much more than Healing Word. Second Wind carry a real cost (in its Standard Action) which makes using it a real choice. And it is tied to a specific character. Healing Word on the other hand is almost free to use, can be used on anyone, and at a range to boot!
"2) The consequence for running out of surges is very blunt indeed, and could well be represented by something less severe and more interesting"
I understand the 4E designers replaced fire and forget spells with encounter and daily powers (and adding this concept to all classes, but that's beside the issue here) for the specific reason to make the choice to press on during the day an interesting and relevant one. That is, in 3E it was not much of a choice; either you rested or you got wiped out in the next encounter.
In this, I think the 4E designers succeeded. Having dailies is a nice thing, but by no means necessary. If the plot dictates a disadvantage for not pressing on, you have a real choice to do so. (I'm not saying I like dailies unreservedly, and this discussion isn't about them per se, only how they managed to solve the 15 minute adventuring day of 3E)
However, all this falls down when we get to healing surges.
What is the penalty of running out of surges? Is it a -1 penalty to most everything (similar to the Death Penalty)? Is it the temporary loss of one random encounter power?
No, it's the complete inability to restore lost hit points. Not even magic will help you when you've run out of surges!
(There are a small selection of powers that do help because they don't force you to use up a surge, but these are the exception and not the rule)
This to me brings back the 15-minute adventuring day with a resounding crash. Yes, after a quick read through the PHB you might think this problem is remote, because a hero can't burn through all his surges in a single encounter.
But that proves to be wrong. If everybody in the party accepts a "feat tax" and takes a multiclass feat, you've just added five daily powers that trigger surges. This alone vastly improves the party's ability to prevent any single character from getting killed (in a single encounter). The party could still be TPK'ed, but no longer is it even remotely possible for a normal-difficulty combat encounter to threaten the PCs with death, which is a real excitement-killer.
But you know what the biggest problem is? It isn't that one character might run out of surges, it is that the party will run out of daily triggers for them surges. And suddenly we're back at the 15-minute adventuring day, because who in their right mind would want to press on without the ability to completely neutralize any kind of monstrous bad luck (or good NPC tactics)?
But even disregarding this for the moment, you still hit the end of surges like a brick wall.
Again, the choice isn't really a choice. Who'd go on with no (or very few) surges left if that means you can't be healed, not even by healing potions or magic?
Taken together, 1 + 2 will also accomplish one very important change. It will remove the power to stop adventuring right when things get interesting out of the hands of the players. Why run two or three preparatory warm-up fights when the players (correctly) deduce that pressing on towards the main villain will present some degree of actual risk and choose to stop and rest for the night?
This is accomplished not by restricting player choice in any way, mind you. This is removed by dissolving the entire issue!
If you are given a bearable penalty for running out altogether, then you might stop for the day. Or you might not. The choice is yours. But no longer will this be the difference between being all but invincible and being completely out of luck. Because if you are limited in the number of surges you can use on an encounter basis, any encounter might be a real scare, not just the last one for the day.
In essence, I am thinking the game needs to move the crucial point of "running out of life" back into the encounter where it belongs (and not as something you evaluate after an encounter, where the decision to press on or rest for the day becomes mundane and trivial).
To me, this feels very "classic", and so I am interested to hear what you have to say.
Obviously, I might have explained my line of thought poorly so please do not hesitate to ask any question.
Not sure this applies to 4E Classic, but as I am speaking to a crowd of brilliant minds who are also open to change, I thought to hear your opinion.
1) There ought to be a limit to the number of surges you can use in any given encounter.
2) The consequence for running out of surges is very blunt indeed, and could well be represented by something less severe and more interesting
"1) There ought to be a limit to the number of surges you can use in any given encounter. "
I know many of you won't have experienced any problems, but the fact remains: the game contains no inherent limitations on how many surges you can use in any given encounter. If you have ten triggers, you can use ten surges.
This effectively makes you invulnerable, especially as many such triggers are very easy to apply (Healing Word, for instance, is only a minor action and can be used up to five squares away) and very flexible (meaning that no matter which PC is targeted by the monsters, these triggers can be used on him).
I know your reaction - "if any party is mad enough to get so many surges, by all means let them". But this completely destroys any trace of excitement and drama in an encounter. You'll realize this once your players see that getting more healing is as cheap as getting that bonus to fire damage or opportunity attacks or whatever and much much more useful in the long run.
If the game limited triggers per character per encounter in some way it would help immensely. Because PCs won't have access to gobs of hit points, monsters don't need to be "hard encounters" just to threaten their lives (which is the basis of any combat excitement).
As an aside to this: I like Second Wind as a mechanic much more than Healing Word. Second Wind carry a real cost (in its Standard Action) which makes using it a real choice. And it is tied to a specific character. Healing Word on the other hand is almost free to use, can be used on anyone, and at a range to boot!
"2) The consequence for running out of surges is very blunt indeed, and could well be represented by something less severe and more interesting"
I understand the 4E designers replaced fire and forget spells with encounter and daily powers (and adding this concept to all classes, but that's beside the issue here) for the specific reason to make the choice to press on during the day an interesting and relevant one. That is, in 3E it was not much of a choice; either you rested or you got wiped out in the next encounter.
In this, I think the 4E designers succeeded. Having dailies is a nice thing, but by no means necessary. If the plot dictates a disadvantage for not pressing on, you have a real choice to do so. (I'm not saying I like dailies unreservedly, and this discussion isn't about them per se, only how they managed to solve the 15 minute adventuring day of 3E)
However, all this falls down when we get to healing surges.
What is the penalty of running out of surges? Is it a -1 penalty to most everything (similar to the Death Penalty)? Is it the temporary loss of one random encounter power?
No, it's the complete inability to restore lost hit points. Not even magic will help you when you've run out of surges!
(There are a small selection of powers that do help because they don't force you to use up a surge, but these are the exception and not the rule)
This to me brings back the 15-minute adventuring day with a resounding crash. Yes, after a quick read through the PHB you might think this problem is remote, because a hero can't burn through all his surges in a single encounter.
But that proves to be wrong. If everybody in the party accepts a "feat tax" and takes a multiclass feat, you've just added five daily powers that trigger surges. This alone vastly improves the party's ability to prevent any single character from getting killed (in a single encounter). The party could still be TPK'ed, but no longer is it even remotely possible for a normal-difficulty combat encounter to threaten the PCs with death, which is a real excitement-killer.
But you know what the biggest problem is? It isn't that one character might run out of surges, it is that the party will run out of daily triggers for them surges. And suddenly we're back at the 15-minute adventuring day, because who in their right mind would want to press on without the ability to completely neutralize any kind of monstrous bad luck (or good NPC tactics)?
But even disregarding this for the moment, you still hit the end of surges like a brick wall.
Again, the choice isn't really a choice. Who'd go on with no (or very few) surges left if that means you can't be healed, not even by healing potions or magic?
Taken together, 1 + 2 will also accomplish one very important change. It will remove the power to stop adventuring right when things get interesting out of the hands of the players. Why run two or three preparatory warm-up fights when the players (correctly) deduce that pressing on towards the main villain will present some degree of actual risk and choose to stop and rest for the night?
This is accomplished not by restricting player choice in any way, mind you. This is removed by dissolving the entire issue!
If you are given a bearable penalty for running out altogether, then you might stop for the day. Or you might not. The choice is yours. But no longer will this be the difference between being all but invincible and being completely out of luck. Because if you are limited in the number of surges you can use on an encounter basis, any encounter might be a real scare, not just the last one for the day.
In essence, I am thinking the game needs to move the crucial point of "running out of life" back into the encounter where it belongs (and not as something you evaluate after an encounter, where the decision to press on or rest for the day becomes mundane and trivial).
To me, this feels very "classic", and so I am interested to hear what you have to say.
Obviously, I might have explained my line of thought poorly so please do not hesitate to ask any question.
