has 4E killed 3rd party Dnd?

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DaveMage		#121	[-]
Posts: 2184 (04/03/09 04:16:22) Wilderlands Pathfinder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I like too many of the 3.x innovations (and I think Pathfinder will offer a few more) to go back to a game that primarily uses the 1E ruleset. As for Pathfinder, I do not think that too many print companies will support it beyond a handful of products. (Though I do think pdf support will be heavy - at least in the beginning.) But, unlike D&D, I don't think Pathfinder needs it as much anyway, since the entire 3.5 library is still easily used with Pathfinder stuff. I'd love to see some publisher do more of the Judges Guild stuff for Pathfinder, so hopefully Bob Bledsaw II will be willing to do so as well.
davrion24		#122	[-]
Posts: 348 (04/03/09 05:12:37) Shadow Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	JoeGKushner wrote: davrion24 wrote: No distributors will carry 3.5 material, so publishers who want to publish for that edition have no choice but to go PDF or POD for those products with the few exceptions you noted. Sounds like the market has spoken. Which market are you talking about, distributors or the consumers who are ultimately the ones purchasing the products? One is clearly affected by demand while the other is clearly impacted by supply. I don't think anyone can dispute that 3.5 sales would have taken a huge drop when 4e was announced up to its launch. The interesting thing would be to compare 3.5 sales going forward to the levels at the 4e launch and see if the numbers are decreasing or increasing.
Mithriltooth		#123	[-]
Posts: 568 (04/03/09 05:44:22) Spectre Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	On a semi-tangent, Ive restored my Superscriber status with Paizo, even with my group currently dissolved. So more power to 3PPs! If anyone has an online PF AP starting up (Im also interested in Castle Whiterock btw) please let me know. ______________________________________________________ Current NG stuff owned... CoF, ToA, MM, VoLK, HotRM, tGC, DaD, VaL, LCoB, TaD, SoDF, FotWK, CoS, DoL a.k.a. Sunderstone
Snoring Rock		#124	[-]
Posts: 1010 (04/03/09 07:55:31) Eternally Unspanked Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	DaveMage wrote: I like too many of the 3.x innovations (and I think Pathfinder will offer a few more) to go back to a game that primarily uses the 1E ruleset. As for Pathfinder, I do not think that too many print companies will support it beyond a handful of products. (Though I do think pdf support will be heavy - at least in the beginning.) But, unlike D&D, I don't think Pathfinder needs it as much anyway, since the entire 3.5 library is still easily used with Pathfinder stuff. I'd love to see some publisher do more of the Judges Guild stuff for Pathfinder, so hopefully Bob Bledsaw II will be willing to do so as well. I am with you totally. I prefer the 3.5 rule set for innovation and the flexibility. I am staying put with Pathfinder. I am just curious and wonder where things may go. I agree on the 3PP support as well. I think however, the support might be better than you think. As for JG doing some Wilderlands ala Pathfinder stuff.......count me in! That would be the best ever! Where is Bob anyway? We need to go bother him into calling Paizo.
JoeGKushner		#125	[-]
Posts: 7421 (04/03/09 09:15:27) Demi Lich Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yeah, in terms of system, I don't see it getting simplier or returning to the old school. I see more options added to the player's side of things and when possible, simplified at the GM side of things. This truly is the one thing I LOVE about 4e. It's about 10 times easier to run. I also like the reinforcement of classes as roles. In that regard I'm "old school" in that a fighter is a fighter, not some freak that's half dipped into a dozen classes, has two substitution levels, and three templates. The multi-classing feats offer a taste of another class, not the whole burrito. e-bay Sales Updated 3/24/2009: , Miniatures, Ultramodern Firearms, The Hunt d20 setting, Legends of Excalibur d20 setting, Legends of the Samurai d20 setting, Midnight books, 4e Points of Light, and more!
Snoring Rock		#126	[-]
Posts: 1011 (04/03/09 12:24:33) Eternally Unspanked Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	JoeGKushner wrote: Yeah, in terms of system, I don't see it getting simplier or returning to the old school. I see more options added to the player's side of things and when possible, simplified at the GM side of things. This truly is the one thing I LOVE about 4e. It's about 10 times easier to run. I also like the reinforcement of classes as roles. In that regard I'm "old school" in that a fighter is a fighter, not some freak that's half dipped into a dozen classes, has two substitution levels, and three templates. The multi-classing feats offer a taste of another class, not the whole burrito. Agreed! Thats why I like Pathfinder. Paizo tweeked it enough to bring the core classes back into the lime-light. The core classes are now better running all the way to high level, rather than munchkinizing. "I have a wizard, bard, fighter, necromancer, rogue, eldritched knight character". Maybe next level I will take druid.
davrion24		#127	[-]
Posts: 350 (04/03/09 12:44:23) Shadow Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Orcus wrote: JoeGKushner wrote: I remember on Monte's board someone posting about like fifteen different books he used to make some weird character and thinking... yup, that's what 3e became. Joe, I agree with you on this. Its what I hate about edition explosion. It will happen with 4E too, with Arcane Power and Martial Power and all the stuff from Dungeon etc. At least with 4E you can get it all in the online Compendium. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I never minded the explosion of 3.x material to choose from. As DM, I never blanketly allow or disallow any book (outside of the core 3). Instead I create a rules document using the core rules plus my modifications to them. This might be revisions to core rules, or additional options like classes, skills, feats, etc, or rarely a removal of a core option (not a big fan of the 3.x druid class, for example). So the glut of books may make a shopper's eye glaze over, but it doesn't really affect my game because I only judge specific components for inclusion (commonly when a player makes a request). Of all the things that are in 3.x, it's the modular design that I like the best because I can use all these bits and pieces to produce my own unique vision into my campaign.
Sen the Collector		#128	[-]
Posts: 3019 (04/03/09 13:04:59) Dark Walker of the Planes Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	As for invasion of the splats that was also in 2E, and is rapidly becoming present in 4E. It will almost certainly happen with Pathfinder as well. Most players have a strong streak of munchkin, and love those power up options. It's up to the DM to establish some boundaries. In 2E I never allowed kits, and in my 3.5 games players only have free access to the PHB, PHB II (minus the new classes), and the DMG prestige classes. If I'm using a published campaign setting they also have access to most of that world's splat stuff as well. Everything else is very much conditional, and involves a pc penalty (typically paying gold to learn non-core feats or to advance in a non-core class/prestige class). This approach has always worked out well for me. Pathfinder is DnD, in the same way that the third party d20 fantasy books are DnD books. I.e. DnD in all but actual name. Joe, you no longer seem in touch with the 3.x folks. I think most of us will be buying Pathfinder stuff because we can still use it in our 3.x games. I am one of those "happy with 3.5, not so crazy about the Pathfinder rpg" gamers you mention, but that won't stop me from buying Pathfinder compatible stuff. It's still close enough to 3.5 to be usable. I think the long term success depends entirely upon how well Paizo manages their business. Their release schedule is already pretty heavy with the steady output of modules and campaign setting sourcebooks. If they actually ramp up their schedule further they alone will oversaturate their market. If they can keep up this sort of product flow over the next few years while still releasing interesting stuff I think they'll be just fine. There is a bunch of Paizo stuff that I want to get, and most of the stuff that they are announcing still sounds REALLY cool to me. I know that TSR kept their Forgotten Realms campaign supplements going for at least a few years and were able to keep putting out cool stuff. After Paizo has pretty well filled out Golarian, I hope that they will move on to a new campaign setting (in a perfect world, by then they will be able to get the rights to Greyhawk) rather than relaunching Golarian. If Paizo does a Pathfinder 2nd Edition in only a few years I think that will almost certainly cause them to self destruct.
CapnZapp		#129	[-]
Posts: 80 (04/19/09 01:07:35) Skeleton Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Orcus wrote: JoeGKushner wrote: I remember on Monte's board someone posting about like fifteen different books he used to make some weird character and thinking... yup, that's what 3e became. Joe, I agree with you on this. Its what I hate about edition explosion. It will happen with 4E too, with Arcane Power and Martial Power and all the stuff from Dungeon etc. At least with 4E you can get it all in the online Compendium. But really that isnt 3E's fault. That isnt a knock on the system. Its a by product of a company wanting to sell sell sell the game. Now, I get that. But there is a side effect--system burn out. It definately happened with 3E just from the sheer volume of the books. But I want to go back to the days when I needed just the DMG, PHB and MM (and maybe MM2 or FF). Thats all. Heck, I went to game sessions for years and years and years with just those books in my bag. We cant do that anymore. I think that requires a rpg publisher that views what it's doing as a hobby and not as a business. That requires people who do not expect to earn their living off writing rpg material. Because WotC is (part of) a publicly traded company, they can't have that approach. Their ultimate goal can't be taking care of their customers. Like any other corporation, their ultimate goal is - and must be - the enrichment of their shareholders. As soon as WotC sees sales from supplements dropping off, they must create a new edition. Otherwise they would have no justification for keeping a staff on board. And no company will voluntarily abstain from staying in business. What we would need is for customers to not buy supplementary stuff. For customers to not get persuaded by the company commercial messages that they need "Complete Twin-Wielding Sickle Fighter's Guidebook".
JoeGKushner		#130	[-]
Posts: 7439 (04/19/09 06:08:43) Demi Lich Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	davrion24 wrote: Orcus wrote: JoeGKushner wrote: I remember on Monte's board someone posting about like fifteen different books he used to make some weird character and thinking... yup, that's what 3e became. Joe, I agree with you on this. Its what I hate about edition explosion. It will happen with 4E too, with Arcane Power and Martial Power and all the stuff from Dungeon etc. At least with 4E you can get it all in the online Compendium. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I never minded the explosion of 3.x material to choose from. As DM, I never blanketly allow or disallow any book (outside of the core 3). Instead I create a rules document using the core rules plus my modifications to them. This might be revisions to core rules, or additional options like classes, skills, feats, etc, or rarely a removal of a core option (not a big fan of the 3.x druid class, for example). So the glut of books may make a shopper's eye glaze over, but it doesn't really affect my game because I only judge specific components for inclusion (commonly when a player makes a request). Of all the things that are in 3.x, it's the modular design that I like the best because I can use all these bits and pieces to produce my own unique vision into my campaign. But at what point isn't it easier to go... you know ,with substitution levels, racial substitution abilities, 10K feats, 1K PrCs, etc..., we're going Hero. All the options, one book. e-bay Sales Updated 3/24/2009: , Miniatures, Ultramodern Firearms, The Hunt d20 setting, Legends of Excalibur d20 setting, Legends of the Samurai d20 setting, Midnight books, 4e Points of Light, and more!
DaveMage		#131	[-]
Posts: 2210 (04/19/09 07:44:11) Wilderlands Pathfinder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yeah, look at 1E - it was around for 12+ years and had only 7 rulebooks for players, and only 3 of them had new character classes (Player's Handbook, Unearthed Arcana, and Oriental Adventures)! And even those rulebooks were relatively tiny, weighing in at only 128-144 pages each. 2E started the problem with kits, but 3E and 4E have made it worse. The game simply gets too unwieldly for DMs and players alike (not to mention the designers themselves) as option numbers approach infinity. n
DaveMage		#132	[-]
Posts: 2211 (04/19/09 11:47:22) Wilderlands Pathfinder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Also, the more options that are introduced, the harder it may be to convert someone to a new edition. After all, if you have books that give you, say, 50 base class options, it's kind of hard to get someone to buy a new edition who has only had time to try maybe 10 of those options. That was another hurdle to 4E for me. I still don't feel like I've given 3.5e a proper shakedown yet in terms of class options (thanks to the 20+ class option rulebooks + 3pp options). It'll be a while.... (And those that play 4E for its life cycle may face the same issue at 5E's release.) Last Edited By: DaveMage 04/19/09 11:50:12. Edited 1 times.
Pale Writer		#133	[-]
Posts: 6689 (04/19/09 14:20:34) Scribe of the Apocalypse Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Where did 1E TSR make their money then? Modules, right? . . . and behind them came a fifth rider on a pony, Pale Writer: Scribe of the Apocalypse.
DaveMage		#134	[-]
Posts: 2212 (04/19/09 14:26:25) Wilderlands Pathfinder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Modules, a few box sets, and of course BECMI was also going during that time.
leadjunkie		#135	[-]
Posts: 2439 (04/19/09 14:27:10) Necromancer Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	TSR had both AD&D and BECMI, so two sets of rules, adventures for both, settings and miscellaneous stuff. Games I am... Judging - Wilderlands: The Pagan Coast Playing - Damien the Bloodfeaster's Red Hand of Doom & kenmckinney's Savage Tide "Virtual" Lich ('cuz Yuku's lame)
Dark Mistress		#136	[-]
Posts: 1818 (04/19/09 16:03:35) Dominatrix Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well the advantage of the option books is people could buy the ones they want and use those. I mean no one said you had to use them all but with so many out their it let just about anyone find something that appealed to them and fit their game. That was the big thing I liked about 3e edition, I could buy a few books. Find optional rules or stuff I want to use, then make a list of what is and is not allowed. You end up with a campaign that is fairly distinictive. But yeah if you allow any and all splat books in i could see that as a problem. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin For MSG - I am sure you can teach a monkey to scratch his butt, just tell him to watch you. After a couple of hours he should be a master at it.
TheRavyn		#137	[-]
Posts: 2049 (04/20/09 03:47:09) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Pale Writer wrote: Where did 1E TSR make their money then? Modules, right? They sold a huge number of basic box sets and copies of the three AD&D 1E core books. So much so that you can reliably still buy them on the secondary market today for cheap. These older rulesets were both less intimidating rulewise and more alluringly mysterious in presentation to newcomers than the 2E and later editions would be. 2E tried to make up for the lesser number of core sales with endless campaign settings, then later character option splats, which would later become the hallmark of 3E (and eventually 4E) marketing. Its indicative imo that many "old-school" players of the newer editions still tend to spend more of their excess gaming dollars on adventure modules than on splats and campaign settings. Beyond the Black Gate - The Ravyn blogs old-school gaming! Check out the New Microlite20! 4E Combat a Drag? Try Brutal 4E! Go Deep! Classic MegaDungeon for 4E under construction... Join the O.A.F - Old School 4E Needs You!
davrion24		#138	[-]
Posts: 356 (04/21/09 10:28:03) Shadow Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	JoeGKushner wrote: But at what point isn't it easier to go... you know ,with substitution levels, racial substitution abilities, 10K feats, 1K PrCs, etc..., we're going Hero. All the options, one book. For me, at no point. I think the analogy that works for me is that my ruleset is to my campaign as a router is to your home PC. Running both wide-open may remove any burden of oversite, but you are dramatically increasing the risk by allowing unsafe content. There's enough content out there that does not seem to be particularly well-balanced to make my stingy outlook worth the effort of vetting these rules before inclusion. By building my ruleset using the 3.x core as a baseline and only adding those components that I want, I end up with features that support the campaign flavor (i.e. no ninjas in a European medieval setting) and campaign balance (no broken classes, feats, p-classes, etc.). In the scheme of the half-full/half-empty glass, I see a book with all the options as being half-full.....of crap that I don't want (and half is probably underestimating things a bit).
leadjunkie		#139	[-]
Posts: 2445 (04/21/09 10:36:36) Necromancer Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Exactly how I see it davrion24. Games I am... Judging - Wilderlands: The Pagan Coast Playing - Damien the Bloodfeaster's Red Hand of Doom & kenmckinney's Savage Tide "Virtual" Lich ('cuz Yuku's lame)
davrion24		#140	[-]
Posts: 358 (04/21/09 10:59:51) Shadow Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Plus at a certain point, too many rules and options can have a paralyzing impact on the players during character creation and levelling up. I'd rather more time be spent playing the game than planning your character's career path.

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