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I would say that yes, 4E has killed 3P support for D&D in its current incarnation. The greatest torch carrying is being done by Paizo but for their Pathfinder system (which in my view is a valid branch of the D&D tree, though not "official").

I plan to support 4E, but we are still gearing up. The GSL was a total disaster. They could have had 3P support from launch and they royally screwed it up. Its all on them. I dont know why they never realized the importance of 3Ps. I dont know if, with this late start, 3P support will ever rise to what it was in 3E days. I think 3E will be remembered as the second golden age of D&D. 4E wont. Now, I like 4E. But the problem is the process of permitting support for the game. 3E was enriched by options and other views beyond those of the game designer. Its arrogance to think that a game designer can provide the whole pie for a game as open as D&D. If they want to reach everyone and really implant D&D as the game and the system then they should let the 3Ps help do that. I think there was no doubt 3E did that with the OGL.

Now we have the GSL, but the support base isnt the same. And the distributor and retailer base isnt the same. In large part it was all poisoned by Wizards not embraceing it going forward. Now retailers are hesitant--and not because of the old glut. But because Wizards failed to set the table properly. And they are the ones that suffer. Its their game we are supporting after all. They should want D&D to DOMINATE retail shelf space. And in the 3E days it did. Now the Wizards books get some good display, but that is it. That is a very short sighted strategy. I want D&D to survive and thrive. They really need to encourage support and ivolvement. Co-opt us into the process. Let the various 3Ps who speak with different voices to different audiences bring EVERYONE to the new game system. That is the opportunity that 4E lost. I guarantee that they would have more old school adopters of 4E if they had let us support 4E right out of the chute. No doubt in my mind. But they let this division form and fester and take root. Its hard to go back. I just cant believe how poorly and with how much lack of vision this 4E launch was done. And the arrogance. Were D&D and we lead and you follow. Man, read your history. That';s the same attitude that took TSR down. The problem is some of the leadership at Wizards. There are people there who are still paranoid about 3Ps and who didnt like Ryan's whole plan in the first place for the OGL. LUCKILY we have guys like Scott Rouse (and we had Linae Foster) and some others who get it. Who understand the value of an external support and how that keeps the brand as the leading brand. 3E dominated for so long because of the 3Ps. I'm not saying there arent changes to make for product and content delivers. I like DDI, I think that is smart. I like the move to more core rulebooks and less splat books. Heck, they know if it says DMG 3 or PHB 4 it will sell better than a differently-titled book with the same content.

So back to the initial question.

Its not 4E itself that killed the 3Ps. Its Wizards' approach to how they permitted 4E to be supported that killed the 3Ps. It had nothing to do with the rules of 4E itself. I blame it ALL on the original GSL.

Clark

JoeGKushner wrote:

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But does 4e need 3rd party support?

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/253287-phb2-comes-number-28-usa-today-top-150-list.html

Seems to showcase that WoTC book selling pretty well.

Don't get me wrong. I'm dying for more 3rd party support but I can't believe that even if WoTC had everything in place retailers wouldn't have some fear of glut again from all but a handful of publishers. And i'm dying to see Tome of Horrors 4e and the Iron Tower Adventure Path or the revised classic 3e stuff. I just don't think WoTC needs it, and I don't think retailers were really clamoring for it. Monte's thoughts on it all would be interesting but I note that he's new big project bypasses retailers completely.

I think this is looking at it wrong. The question isnt whether the first batch of books sell well. That's a given. If that doesnt happen we're all doomed. The question is how long does 4E remain viable. 3Ps contribute to that. They keep people playing D&D as opposed to drifting away from it. There was NOT a rift between editions like there has been with 4E. There is Pathfinder now and there is just flat a lot of dissatisfaction with 4E that is leading people to just not play anymore. 3Ps could transition those people to D&D and keep them there. Failing to have 3Ps lined up at launch will prove to be a fatal mistake, that Wizards wont see coming because, like you, they will presume that good sales of the core books means all is fine. Big, big mistake.