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My Recent Posts · Dec 22 08 3:51 PM

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It seems like every thread I read where someone is critisizing 4E, others seem to take it personal.
Do those that enjoy 4E feel the need to not only defend their perceived merits of the game, but also seem to take critisism about a game as some sort of personal affront?

Is this true about other things and I have just missed it?
I have heard critique of C&C, and though I have agreed on some term, and disagreed on others, I never took the critique as an insult to myself.

Is it just the fact that they are dissapointed not everyone is choosing to hop on this bandwagon?

If someone says a game is dumbed down. Who in their right mind would think that they were just called dumb?

I watch tv that has been obviously been dumbed down. If I hear someone say tv and other media has been dumbed down I simply agree, I don't think I was just called dumb if I enjoy watching it.

Where does this form of reasoning come from?
I am pretty sure the same root cause may also be applied to society and politics but this is not such a thread.

I'm curious to hear what theories others may have on this topic.

My Recent Posts · Dec 22 08 4:07 PM

Thread links please. I must have I missed the latest action!

My Recent Posts · Dec 22 08 4:20 PM

Oh stop!
I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why 4ers seem to be so defensive concerning their choice of games.

My Recent Posts · Dec 22 08 4:37 PM

Like I have said elsewhere, it boils down to a certain percentage of every RPG are "defensive defenders".

My Recent Posts · Dec 22 08 4:43 PM

Joe wrote:
Oh stop!
I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why 4ers seem to be so defensive concerning their choice of games.

I may be wrong, but I assume the root of your question is "when I or someone else posts something critical of edition x, why do fans of edition x defend it?". Anytime you post something critical of something someone likes in public forum, people are likely to respond.

I should respond to your question with "why shouldn't they be defensive?" or better yet "why aren't they allowed to take a contrary position to a 4E critic?"

Discussion boards are for just that - discussion. Blogs are a much more appropriate place for stating an opinion without having to deal with contrary opinions.

If I post something along the lines of "4E is teh suck. It has no rules for roleplaying, forces me to play Dragonpeople with boobs, and is a lame copy of WoW", I see no problem with someone chiming in to say "I've played 4E and we roleplay just fine, its nothing like WoW except for maybe a couple of cherry-picked good ideas, and every edition has had silly ignorable classes and races like Dragonborn, such as Kender, or Half-Orc Paladin-Monk-Justiciars so why should this make 4E any different?"

My Recent Posts · Dec 22 08 4:49 PM

OK, so I wasn't being totally serious. You'll find that about my posts.

Treebore's right. Some people get overly defensive, especially when it comes to RPGs. Goes with the gaming geek territory. Regardless of edition. If you mean the old-school 4e fans on these boards specifically, you're probably barking up the wrong tree--we're not really a defensive lot. Most of us are quite open-minded actually. Same can't be said for other boards.

My Recent Posts · Dec 22 08 4:56 PM

There are some boards where the defensiveness uses the axiom "the best defense is a good offense" quite heavily, though.

I won't mENtion Which bOaRd one wouLD see this on, though. I'm not that petty.

My Recent Posts · Dec 22 08 5:11 PM

Speak of the devil! Go to this thread on ENWorld and see where a defender of 4E claims he is more mature than I am! His post is the last, or near to last post on page one.

4E is for MATURE people!

My response is at the top of page 2.

My Recent Posts · Dec 22 08 6:09 PM

I don't know what it is but I personally find that people are MUCH more insulting on all sides of the fence with the current edition than I've ever seen it. Your mileage may vary and all that but it's definatley a "if you ain't with us you be against us" mentallity out there.

My Recent Posts · Dec 22 08 6:24 PM

JoeGKushner wrote:
I don't know what it is but I personally find that people are MUCH more insulting on all sides of the fence with the current edition than I've ever seen it. Your mileage may vary and all that but it's definatley a "if you ain't with us you be against us" mentallity out there.

I wonder what the 2E to 3E message board activity would have been like if:
a) D&D message boards were as active in 2000 as they are now, and
b) So many people hadn't drifted away from 2E by the time of 3E's introduction

I remember when ENWorld first got fired up, posts were more like "Jeez, I havn't played D&D in years, I'll have to check out this new version..."

Now its more like "I'm perfectly fine with 3.5, why'd WotC have to go and ruin my life forever with this dumbed down videogame!?" and "Are you crazy!? 3.5 sucks! Convert to 4E or you're a rules lawyering munchkin with no imagination!" Though I do feel the mods have kept this under much better control since the venomous months of say June through September...

My Recent Posts · Dec 22 08 6:33 PM

D&D is badwrongfun.

We should all be playing Scrabble.

"Hey look - I got "question" on two triple letter scores!" 212 points! Yay!

My Recent Posts · Dec 22 08 7:32 PM

Ravyn,
Thanks for your welcome btw.
But I fear you are mistaking discussion with debate. In discussion communication is the goal. In a debate, winning is the goal. When someone takes my words and purposely misrepresents them, I suspect communication is not your first goal. A group could role play Monopoly...that does not mean Monoploy was designed as a role playing game.
I'm not talking about the discussion of games and the open forthright exchange of ideas and opinions. I'm talking about people that take these discussions and critiques personally.
If I wanted to ask, why does someone defend a view of something or take an opposing view, then that is what I would have asked.

If you would listen for what I am actually asking instead of trying to twist my words to assert yours, then you would hear me.

Why, does a person take an affront when others are critical of 4E? If I said the game was dumbed down, or that it imitated an imitation, why would that offend you? Why would you "remind" me that there are folks here that like 4E, and warn me of making blanket statements, as if my statements were somehow an insult to you or them?

If I told you, when I read the books, or when I play the game it feels like nothing I can identify as D&D, and that it feels like the target audience is not roleplayers, but teenage video gamers. How is that an insult to anyone that plays the game?

My Recent Posts · Dec 22 08 9:18 PM

They are pissed because they aren't teenagers anymore and wish they were?

My Recent Posts · Dec 22 08 9:34 PM

Joe - I think your asking a question you already know the answer to. If I said your religious views were superstition or your political views were myopic and you didn't respond defensively, even take offense, I would suggest that your conviction was not very heartfelt. Clearly D&D isn't politics or religion... wait maybe it is. You get the point.

We all bring our prejudices to our view of the game and we make judgements based on that. Here is a really good discussion on that.

Grognardia

Let me know what you think of this and its relevance to this discussion.

My Recent Posts · Dec 22 08 9:34 PM

Treebore wrote:
They are pissed because they aren't teenagers anymore and wish they were?

The people attacking 4e or the 4e people attacking back? Both?

My Recent Posts · Dec 23 08 12:29 AM

JoeGKushner wrote:

Treebore wrote:
They are pissed because they aren't teenagers anymore and wish they were?

The people attacking 4e or the 4e people attacking back? Both?

Probably both. In my case, when I get involved in such arguments by actually arguing, its simply because I feel like arguing that day. It wasn't too long ago when I argued because I didn't "get it". Now I do. I like what I like and other people will like what they like, and it likely won't be the same thing I like. Now I realize arguing over which edition of D&D is best is as stupid as me arguing with someone who loves coffee about how much I hate it.

My Recent Posts · Dec 23 08 3:39 AM

Leadjunkie...you have me there.
If I really think about it, I did already know the answer.
Your link was right on, and hit the nail on the head.
I am afraid I am just as guilty.
I have always preferred old school traditional. I have always preferred core books to splat books and mind melding half minotaurs. I prefer roleplaying over power gaming, but each type not only has their niche, but are just as legit as the other.

Now if they would only rename it it "Tabletop WOW Designed for Munchkined Power Gamers and Not Anything Resembling Original D&D" I would be happy with it.

Just kidding

My Recent Posts · Dec 23 08 3:50 AM

How about ... D&D: the Gathering of Silly Power Names.

My Recent Posts · Dec 23 08 6:37 AM

4e sucks.

My Recent Posts · Dec 23 08 6:54 AM

Joe wrote:
Why, does a person take an affront when others are critical of 4E? If I said the game was dumbed down, or that it imitated an imitation, why would that offend you? Why would you "remind" me that there are folks here that like 4E, and warn me of making blanket statements, as if my statements were somehow an insult to you or them?

If I told you, when I read the books, or when I play the game it feels like nothing I can identify as D&D, and that it feels like the target audience is not roleplayers, but teenage video gamers. How is that an insult to anyone that plays the game?

To better understand this phenomenon, simply walk into any bar in chicago and loudly proclaim "The Bears Suck!"

The serious answer is "who knows why?". If someone tells you a TV show you adore is written for idiots with a 3rd grade education and no taste whatsoever, than you may figure you are obliquely being called an idiot. If this really makes no sense to you, then I probably won't be able to explain it. Social skills take years to develope and wiser mentors than I to impart, but I'm sure most of us have heard the old refrain from our mothers or grandmothers "If you can't say anything nice...". Cliche, yes, but an invaluable aid in avoiding bruised feelings and black eyes...

"Edition Wars" has ruined the atmosphere on many message boards, resulting in nothing but hurt feelings, harsh words, and missing contributers. My warning to tread carefully in the 4E bashing (or bashing of any edition) was an attempt to help you avoid stirring up the sort of contentious atmosphere we've been trying to avoid here.

I will now dismantle and burn my soapbox...

My Recent Posts · Dec 23 08 9:14 AM

TheRavyn wrote:

If someone tells you a TV show you adore is written for idiots with a 3rd grade education and no taste whatsoever, than you may figure you are obliquely being called an idiot.

Hey pal, it's not my fault I made factual statements about the Teletubbies. I didn't even know you watched it!

Author	Comment
Joe	Why Do 4Eers Take It Personal???	Lead	[-]
Posts: 102 Dec 22 08 3:51 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None It seems like every thread I read where someone is critisizing 4E, others seem to take it personal. Do those that enjoy 4E feel the need to not only defend their perceived merits of the game, but also seem to take critisism about a game as some sort of personal affront? Is this true about other things and I have just missed it? I have heard critique of C&C, and though I have agreed on some term, and disagreed on others, I never took the critique as an insult to myself. Is it just the fact that they are dissapointed not everyone is choosing to hop on this bandwagon? If someone says a game is dumbed down. Who in their right mind would think that they were just called dumb? I watch tv that has been obviously been dumbed down. If I hear someone say tv and other media has been dumbed down I simply agree, I don't think I was just called dumb if I enjoy watching it. Where does this form of reasoning come from? I am pretty sure the same root cause may also be applied to society and politics but this is not such a thread. I'm curious to hear what theories others may have on this topic.
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Prismatic DM		#1	[-]
Posts: 746 Dec 22 08 4:07 PM Wight Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thread links please. I must have I missed the latest action! Old-School D&D Blog: The Borderlands I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer. -- Douglas Adams
Joe		#2	[-]
Posts: 102 Dec 22 08 4:20 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Oh stop! I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why 4ers seem to be so defensive concerning their choice of games.
Treebore		#3	[-]
Posts: 8667 Dec 22 08 4:37 PM Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Like I have said elsewhere, it boils down to a certain percentage of every RPG are "defensive defenders".
TheRavyn		#4	[-]
Posts: 2773 Dec 22 08 4:43 PM Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Joe wrote: Oh stop! I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why 4ers seem to be so defensive concerning their choice of games. I may be wrong, but I assume the root of your question is "when I or someone else posts something critical of edition x, why do fans of edition x defend it?". Anytime you post something critical of something someone likes in public forum, people are likely to respond. I should respond to your question with "why shouldn't they be defensive?" or better yet "why aren't they allowed to take a contrary position to a 4E critic?" Discussion boards are for just that - discussion. Blogs are a much more appropriate place for stating an opinion without having to deal with contrary opinions. If I post something along the lines of "4E is teh suck. It has no rules for roleplaying, forces me to play Dragonpeople with boobs, and is a lame copy of WoW", I see no problem with someone chiming in to say "I've played 4E and we roleplay just fine, its nothing like WoW except for maybe a couple of cherry-picked good ideas, and every edition has had silly ignorable classes and races like Dragonborn, such as Kender, or Half-Orc Paladin-Monk-Justiciars so why should this make 4E any different?" Beyond the Black Gate - Yer Old-School Gaming Blog My other car is a Flail Snail.
Prismatic DM		#5	[-]
Posts: 746 Dec 22 08 4:49 PM Wight Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	OK, so I wasn't being totally serious. You'll find that about my posts. Treebore's right. Some people get overly defensive, especially when it comes to RPGs. Goes with the gaming geek territory. Regardless of edition. If you mean the old-school 4e fans on these boards specifically, you're probably barking up the wrong tree--we're not really a defensive lot. Most of us are quite open-minded actually. Same can't be said for other boards. Old-School D&D Blog: The Borderlands I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer. -- Douglas Adams
Pale Writer		#6	[-]
Posts: 7469 Dec 22 08 4:56 PM Scribe of the Apocalypse Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	There are some boards where the defensiveness uses the axiom "the best defense is a good offense" quite heavily, though. I won't mENtion Which bOaRd one wouLD see this on, though. I'm not that petty. "And so he says, 'I don't like the cut of your jib.' And I go, I says, IT'S THE ONLY JIB I GOT, BABY!"
Treebore		#7	[-]
Posts: 8667 Dec 22 08 5:11 PM Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Speak of the devil! Go to this thread on ENWorld and see where a defender of 4E claims he is more mature than I am! His post is the last, or near to last post on page one. 4E is for MATURE people! My response is at the top of page 2.
JoeGKushner		#8	[-]
Posts: 7618 Dec 22 08 6:09 PM Demi Lich Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I don't know what it is but I personally find that people are MUCH more insulting on all sides of the fence with the current edition than I've ever seen it. Your mileage may vary and all that but it's definatley a "if you ain't with us you be against us" mentallity out there. e-bay Sales Updated 3/24/2009: , Miniatures, Ultramodern Firearms, The Hunt d20 setting, Legends of Excalibur d20 setting, Legends of the Samurai d20 setting, Midnight books, 4e Points of Light, and more!
TheRavyn		#9	[-]
Posts: 2773 Dec 22 08 6:24 PM Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	JoeGKushner wrote: I don't know what it is but I personally find that people are MUCH more insulting on all sides of the fence with the current edition than I've ever seen it. Your mileage may vary and all that but it's definatley a "if you ain't with us you be against us" mentallity out there. I wonder what the 2E to 3E message board activity would have been like if: a) D&D message boards were as active in 2000 as they are now, and b) So many people hadn't drifted away from 2E by the time of 3E's introduction I remember when ENWorld first got fired up, posts were more like "Jeez, I havn't played D&D in years, I'll have to check out this new version..." Now its more like "I'm perfectly fine with 3.5, why'd WotC have to go and ruin my life forever with this dumbed down videogame!?" and "Are you crazy!? 3.5 sucks! Convert to 4E or you're a rules lawyering munchkin with no imagination!" Though I do feel the mods have kept this under much better control since the venomous months of say June through September... Beyond the Black Gate - Yer Old-School Gaming Blog My other car is a Flail Snail.
DaveMage		#10	[-]
Posts: 2964 Dec 22 08 6:33 PM Wilderlands Pathfinder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	D&D is badwrongfun. We should all be playing Scrabble. "Hey look - I got "question" on two triple letter scores!" 212 points! Yay!
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Joe		#11	[-]
Posts: 102 Dec 22 08 7:32 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Ravyn, Thanks for your welcome btw. But I fear you are mistaking discussion with debate. In discussion communication is the goal. In a debate, winning is the goal. When someone takes my words and purposely misrepresents them, I suspect communication is not your first goal. A group could role play Monopoly...that does not mean Monoploy was designed as a role playing game. I'm not talking about the discussion of games and the open forthright exchange of ideas and opinions. I'm talking about people that take these discussions and critiques personally. If I wanted to ask, why does someone defend a view of something or take an opposing view, then that is what I would have asked. If you would listen for what I am actually asking instead of trying to twist my words to assert yours, then you would hear me. Why, does a person take an affront when others are critical of 4E? If I said the game was dumbed down, or that it imitated an imitation, why would that offend you? Why would you "remind" me that there are folks here that like 4E, and warn me of making blanket statements, as if my statements were somehow an insult to you or them? If I told you, when I read the books, or when I play the game it feels like nothing I can identify as D&D, and that it feels like the target audience is not roleplayers, but teenage video gamers. How is that an insult to anyone that plays the game? Last Edited By: Joe Dec 22 08 7:35 PM. Edited 1 times.
Treebore		#12	[-]
Posts: 8667 Dec 22 08 9:18 PM Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	They are pissed because they aren't teenagers anymore and wish they were?
leadjunkie		#13	[-]
Posts: 3705 Dec 22 08 9:34 PM Necromancer Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Joe - I think your asking a question you already know the answer to. If I said your religious views were superstition or your political views were myopic and you didn't respond defensively, even take offense, I would suggest that your conviction was not very heartfelt. Clearly D&D isn't politics or religion... wait maybe it is. You get the point. We all bring our prejudices to our view of the game and we make judgements based on that. Here is a really good discussion on that. Grognardia Let me know what you think of this and its relevance to this discussion. Games I am... Judging - Kingmaker: Adventure Path PFRPG Playing - Tom Crone's, Order of the Rusty Dagger (home brew), PFRPG; Stan Shinn's, Redmark Campaign in the Barrow Maze, S&W White Box; Ken Mezger's, Myth II (home brew), PFRPG "Virtual" Type I Demon ('cuz Yuku's lame)
JoeGKushner		#14	[-]
Posts: 7618 Dec 22 08 9:34 PM Demi Lich Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Treebore wrote: They are pissed because they aren't teenagers anymore and wish they were? The people attacking 4e or the 4e people attacking back? Both? e-bay Sales Updated 3/24/2009: , Miniatures, Ultramodern Firearms, The Hunt d20 setting, Legends of Excalibur d20 setting, Legends of the Samurai d20 setting, Midnight books, 4e Points of Light, and more!
Treebore		#15	[-]
Posts: 8667 Dec 23 08 12:29 AM Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	JoeGKushner wrote: Treebore wrote: They are pissed because they aren't teenagers anymore and wish they were? The people attacking 4e or the 4e people attacking back? Both? Probably both. In my case, when I get involved in such arguments by actually arguing, its simply because I feel like arguing that day. It wasn't too long ago when I argued because I didn't "get it". Now I do. I like what I like and other people will like what they like, and it likely won't be the same thing I like. Now I realize arguing over which edition of D&D is best is as stupid as me arguing with someone who loves coffee about how much I hate it.
Joe		#16	[-]
Posts: 102 Dec 23 08 3:39 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Leadjunkie...you have me there. If I really think about it, I did already know the answer. Your link was right on, and hit the nail on the head. I am afraid I am just as guilty. I have always preferred old school traditional. I have always preferred core books to splat books and mind melding half minotaurs. I prefer roleplaying over power gaming, but each type not only has their niche, but are just as legit as the other. Now if they would only rename it it "Tabletop WOW Designed for Munchkined Power Gamers and Not Anything Resembling Original D&D" I would be happy with it. Just kidding
Prismatic DM		#17	[-]
Posts: 746 Dec 23 08 3:50 AM Wight Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	How about ... D&D: the Gathering of Silly Power Names. Old-School D&D Blog: The Borderlands I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer. -- Douglas Adams
mtbdm		#18	[-]
Posts: 5605 Dec 23 08 6:37 AM Bastard Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	4e sucks. MtbDM Q: MtbDM, what is good in life? A: To crush the PCs, see their character sheets pile before you, and hear the lamentation of their players.
TheRavyn		#19	[-]
Posts: 2773 Dec 23 08 6:54 AM Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Joe wrote: Why, does a person take an affront when others are critical of 4E? If I said the game was dumbed down, or that it imitated an imitation, why would that offend you? Why would you "remind" me that there are folks here that like 4E, and warn me of making blanket statements, as if my statements were somehow an insult to you or them? If I told you, when I read the books, or when I play the game it feels like nothing I can identify as D&D, and that it feels like the target audience is not roleplayers, but teenage video gamers. How is that an insult to anyone that plays the game? To better understand this phenomenon, simply walk into any bar in chicago and loudly proclaim "The Bears Suck!" The serious answer is "who knows why?". If someone tells you a TV show you adore is written for idiots with a 3rd grade education and no taste whatsoever, than you may figure you are obliquely being called an idiot. If this really makes no sense to you, then I probably won't be able to explain it. Social skills take years to develope and wiser mentors than I to impart, but I'm sure most of us have heard the old refrain from our mothers or grandmothers "If you can't say anything nice...". Cliche, yes, but an invaluable aid in avoiding bruised feelings and black eyes... "Edition Wars" has ruined the atmosphere on many message boards, resulting in nothing but hurt feelings, harsh words, and missing contributers. My warning to tread carefully in the 4E bashing (or bashing of any edition) was an attempt to help you avoid stirring up the sort of contentious atmosphere we've been trying to avoid here. I will now dismantle and burn my soapbox... Beyond the Black Gate - Yer Old-School Gaming Blog My other car is a Flail Snail.
Pale Writer		#20	[-]
Posts: 7469 Dec 23 08 9:14 AM Scribe of the Apocalypse Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	TheRavyn wrote: If someone tells you a TV show you adore is written for idiots with a 3rd grade education and no taste whatsoever, than you may figure you are obliquely being called an idiot. Hey pal, it's not my fault I made factual statements about the Teletubbies. I didn't even know you watched it! "And so he says, 'I don't like the cut of your jib.' And I go, I says, IT'S THE ONLY JIB I GOT, BABY!"
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Why Do 4Eers Take It Personal???

Why Do 4Eers Take It Personal???