Necro Update -- 4E print not looking good, but still possible

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Dark Mistress		#41	[-]
Posts: 1890 (06/18/09 15:20:24) Dominatrix Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	To comment on the Paizo subscriptions. Adventure Path and Chronicles is monthly Companion and Modules are bi monthly The main game they are talking 3-4 a year. Right now the two main books and screen are all coming out on top of each other cause they are the core books to play PFRPG. As for Necro partnering with Goodman, I mean it would be a good fit but would Goodman want to? I mean they both kinda cater to the same type of fans really. I think Paizo would be a better partner for Necro, they have a well known name and despite still doing 3.5 stuff(though thats about to change) stores and distributors are still ordering and stocking their stuff. So if Necro did 4e products with them I think stores would order them. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin For MSG - I am sure you can teach a monkey to scratch his butt, just tell him to watch you. After a couple of hours he should be a master at it.
leadjunkie		#42	[-]
Posts: 2649 (06/18/09 16:09:50) Necromancer Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Snoring Rock wrote: davrion24 wrote: Snoring Rock wrote: Let me throw this out there. Tegel Manor is done in 3.5 sitting on a shelf. Easily made to Pathfinder. Why not print that and offer it as a subscription the same as the adventure paths? Tegal is back in Bob Jr.'s hands and won't be a NG release. Don't know if that means he has the finished conversion work in hand or if that effort is lost. True, and it seems they quietly parted ways. But Bob Jr. has not done anything to my knowledge. Its dead. Too bad. We were so close. Bob, III has taken over the web sites. They launched the new judgesguild.org which has had a slow start with minor additions added in the last few months. Clearly it has an intention to offer product, but presently the product link is non-functioning. He has also taken over judgesguild.com (the old Necromancer Games Judges Guild site). It has been given a face lift and reorganized, but has no new content. I bet they would accept new fan material. The judgesguild.net site still remains a wasteland. Games I am... Judging - Wilderlands: The Pagan Coast Playing - Damien the Bloodfeaster's Red Hand of Doom & kenmckinney's Savage Tide "Virtual" Lich ('cuz Yuku's lame) Last Edited By: leadjunkie 06/18/09 16:12:58. Edited 1 times.
Treebore		#43	[-]
Posts: 8017 (06/18/09 16:47:12) Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dark Mistress wrote: To comment on the Paizo subscriptions. Adventure Path and Chronicles is monthly Companion and Modules are bi monthly The main game they are talking 3-4 a year. Right now the two main books and screen are all coming out on top of each other cause they are the core books to play PFRPG. As for Necro partnering with Goodman, I mean it would be a good fit but would Goodman want to? I mean they both kinda cater to the same type of fans really. I think Paizo would be a better partner for Necro, they have a well known name and despite still doing 3.5 stuff(though thats about to change) stores and distributors are still ordering and stocking their stuff. So if Necro did 4e products with them I think stores would order them. Yeah, I don't pay attention to the "frequency". I don't subscribe to anything but PF, the maps, and now the RPG. I have been toying with the cards subscription, especially now with character portraits being added. As for Goodman, I don't know. Its something Clark and Bill would have to decide to talk to Joe Goodman about. Joe already has several things on his plate, the 1E licensing to Tacojohn and Grodog, the Death Dealer stuff, Cthulhu stuff, System neutral stuff, Level Up!, Creatures, etc... So he may very well already have enough going on, if Clark/Bill would even be interested in exploring such a partnership. Which, to be honest, I doubt. I just know there are other options, its just a question of how much effort Clark/Bill are willing and able to do. I think it would help if they had someone they could trust to put more time into the publishing part too.
DaveMage		#44	[-]
Posts: 2287 (06/18/09 17:48:56) Wilderlands Pathfinder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yeah, that's me on Paizo. As Dark Mistress said, some of their subscriptions are not product every month, and the RPG stuff will be even less. Necro could certainly do the same.
tacojohn4547		#45	[-]
Posts: 301 (06/19/09 01:45:40) Ghast Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Treebore wrote: Dark Mistress wrote: To comment on the Paizo subscriptions. Adventure Path and Chronicles is monthly Companion and Modules are bi monthly The main game they are talking 3-4 a year. Right now the two main books and screen are all coming out on top of each other cause they are the core books to play PFRPG. As for Necro partnering with Goodman, I mean it would be a good fit but would Goodman want to? I mean they both kinda cater to the same type of fans really. I think Paizo would be a better partner for Necro, they have a well known name and despite still doing 3.5 stuff(though thats about to change) stores and distributors are still ordering and stocking their stuff. So if Necro did 4e products with them I think stores would order them. Yeah, I don't pay attention to the "frequency". I don't subscribe to anything but PF, the maps, and now the RPG. I have been toying with the cards subscription, especially now with character portraits being added. As for Goodman, I don't know. Its something Clark and Bill would have to decide to talk to Joe Goodman about. Joe already has several things on his plate, the 1E licensing to Tacojohn and Grodog, the Death Dealer stuff, Cthulhu stuff, System neutral stuff, Level Up!, Creatures, etc... So he may very well already have enough going on, if Clark/Bill would even be interested in exploring such a partnership. Which, to be honest, I doubt. I just know there are other options, its just a question of how much effort Clark/Bill are willing and able to do. I think it would help if they had someone they could trust to put more time into the publishing part too. Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think Necromancer Games adventures done for First Edition AD&D would kick ass! I would jump through all kinds of hoops to be able to either release selected d20 Necromancer adventures converted to First Edition AD&D or to release new, original Necromancer adventures for First Edition AD&D. Such adventures would be immediately usable by old schoolers playing AD&D, Basic D&D (Mentzer or Moldvay or Holmes), Original D&D, or any of the modern retro-clones thereof, such as Labyrinth Lord or Swords & Wizardry. Such adventures would also be usable by folks playing C&C since it's a d20 derivative game, but with old school heart and soul. Releasing outstanding adventures that are usable by so many D&D rules systems is really at the heart of what Black Blade Publishing is all about. And Necromancer Games has always been about providing fantastic adventures for their loyal fans.
Snoring Rock		#46	[-]
Posts: 1053 (06/19/09 03:05:01) Eternally Unspanked Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	leadjunkie wrote: Bob, III has taken over the web sites. They launched the new judgesguild.org which has had a slow start with minor additions added in the last few months. Clearly it has an intention to offer product, but presently the product link is non-functioning. He has also taken over judgesguild.com (the old Necromancer Games Judges Guild site). It has been given a face lift and reorganized, but has no new content. I bet they would accept new fan material. The judgesguild.net site still remains a wasteland. I have been to each of these sites, I guess maybe once a week. Wasteland is a good decriptor. I see no signs of new product, much less any prodct, excelt t-shirts and mugs. If it is going to go anywhere, it will be through a partnership with someone who has a passion for the Wilderlands and Bob Sr.'s work. My limited vision here; but I dont see much ever happening with JG at this point. There was a resurrection of JG and D&D with 3.x and as many here have called it, the golden years of D&D. As we can now all plainly see, 4e is not your father's D&D game now is it? Not starting an edition war here. Lets be realistic, if ever Tegel or any other JG material would ever see the light of day again, it was gonna be NG that did it. The time now has passed. Wish I was wrong on this one. WotC wanted to clear the board...they did that. Regardless of what supporters of 4e may say or believe or think......4e is not as poplular and the game is not selling well enough to support "many" 3PP's. Again, not trying to start edition wars here, just being flat realisitc from a bunsiness point of view. I am not commenting on the fun-value of the game, just on the business model and the feasibility of seeing 4e printed material from NG. There is enough sales to make WotC money....lots of it....hand over fist. But not enough to warrant several, several 3PP's. I mean how many are out there turning stuff out? Most of it sold via the internet. WotC yanked all PDF materials, so the old stuff is gone. Its down to brick and mortar and they carry WotC and Paizo. I see nothing else on the shelf. Ok, a few unsold DCC's and some old NG stuff that still has not sold. After what has happened for the past several years, can you blame them or the distributors? Throwing NG material into the mix is risky. Even printing PFRPG stuff has risk. I dont think there will be anymore blockbuster adventures; not in this market. The market has segmented so much that one product will no longer make several segments happy. OSRIC, PFRPG, 3.5e, 3.0e, 4e, 2e, 1e, OD&D, C&C, W&S, S&S, S&M, KFC, YMCA, BSA......so what system do you publish for? Whew.....I will rest now. Last Edited By: Snoring Rock 06/19/09 03:49:51. Edited 1 times.
RJM		#47	[-]
Posts: 33 (06/19/09 06:46:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In regards to connection to Golarion, though you may not be able place anything directly in the world it doesn't mean its not possible to make closer. In there APs Paizo has discussed planet hopping. Much like Stargates. So connection to the Golarion campaign world could only be minorly so. The other way would make non-world specific products. They share a common flavour but could be dropped into even established campaign worlds.
JeffB		#48	[-]
Posts: 414 (06/19/09 07:12:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Snore- do you really consider the 3.x WOTC era the "golden years" of D&D? Golden years of 3P publishing yes- but a total dillution of the D&D game and brand name because of the 3P publishers (and the core reason for such a restrictive GSL- and I would have done it the same exact way- except to get the GSL right from the beginning). Whether one likes 4E or not, the whole idea is to NOT support the 3PP market like they did before- thats a a feature, not a bug as far as WOTC is concerned. I am not directing this at anyone in particular- just a general comment- but I am amazed how many gamers feel they are ENTITLED to 3PP support via WOTC licensing out their game. Frankly I think things were FAR better when the market wasn't D20 centric. I much prefer the days when game rules were written specifically for a particular setting/genre and not the other way around. I sure as hell don't want to play Glorantha D20 or Traveller D20, or LOTR D20, or any other great setting castrated to fit D&D tropes. Yes it sucks Necro isn't able to utilize the GSL, but I'm actually enjoying the fact that there is not a plethora of crap 3PP product on the shelves anymore-Lord knows for every good Necro or Green Ronin product there was 20 or 30 other horrid ones. I think Gamers have (conveniently) forgotten about the serious amounts of crap and only care to remember the few and far between gems in order to further their personal "I want"' s. *Founding Father of O.A.F.- Old school Admirers of Fourth edition* "I feel books like "A Princess of Mars", "The Swords of Lankhmar" and "The Black Company" are far more important to your gaming experience than whether you choose between OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, or D&D4E." ..... TheRavyn *"D&D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules." Tim Kask, Foreword, Eldritch Wizardry 1976*
Geleg		#49	[-]
Posts: 1545 (06/19/09 07:18:03) Lurker Above Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm with TacoJohn, but I know that Clark doesn't feel the same way. Sigh.
Snoring Rock		#50	[-]
Posts: 1054 (06/19/09 07:18:27) Eternally Unspanked Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Some simple but exciting plug-n-play, sand-box-type adventures I think would work. The other advetures written and published by NG never really sat in an established world. Take Rappan Athuk for example. It was part of the NG world....or was it? It fit so nicely into the Wilderlands that it seemed to be part of it. That is the kind of stuff that can be used by anyone, even someone using Golarion. Sand-box adventures not tied to a specific world are what I am looking for.
Mithriltooth		#51	[-]
Posts: 581 (06/19/09 07:44:09) Spectre Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	VoLK was the ultimate Necro sandboxy module, imho of course. ______________________________________________________ Current NG stuff owned... CoF, ToA, MM, VoLK, HotRM, tGC, DaD, VaL, LCoB, TaD, SoDF, FotWK, CoS, DoL a.k.a. Sunderstone
TheRavyn		#52	[-]
Posts: 2169 (06/19/09 07:53:20) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Releasing outstanding adventures that are usable by so many D&D rules systems is really at the heart of what Black Blade Publishing is all about. And Necromancer Games has always been about providing fantastic adventures for their loyal fans. Personally I'd pay fat bucks for an osr Tomb of Abysthor. My group actually stopped playing this because we kept saying "this should be a 1E adventure" and planned on doing a conversion, but never did. Beyond the Black Gate - Yer Old-School Gaming Blog O.A.F. - Kickin' wimps outta the Treehouse since 2008! My other car is a Flail Snail.
Snoring Rock		#53	[-]
Posts: 1055 (06/19/09 07:55:14) Eternally Unspanked Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well.....I dont personally consider 3.x the golden years....not for me personally, but more money, more players, more material, more options came with the era of 3.x. As a business....absolutely! Dont get me wrong, love OD&D but realistically, 3.x played better in many cases. Sure something was lost, but so much was gained.
Mithriltooth		#54	[-]
Posts: 582 (06/19/09 08:01:47) Spectre Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	To me the "Golden Age" of D&D was AD&D with modules like ToEE, Tomb of Horrors, Slavers, etc. Also, for me 3x was the "Return to the Golden Age" of D&D. For the first time ever, 3E had me look into 3PPs for rpg material when I had always been a strict "Official Brand" user. The first non-official brand product I ever bought was from Necromancer Games when I saw the "First Edition Feel" logos. I bought CoF, ToA, and VoLK first iirc. ______________________________________________________ Current NG stuff owned... CoF, ToA, MM, VoLK, HotRM, tGC, DaD, VaL, LCoB, TaD, SoDF, FotWK, CoS, DoL a.k.a. Sunderstone
Snoring Rock		#55	[-]
Posts: 1056 (06/19/09 08:10:54) Eternally Unspanked Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	JeffB wrote: Snore- do you really consider the 3.x WOTC era the "golden years" of D&D? Golden years of 3P publishing yes- but a total dillution of the D&D game and brand name because of the 3P publishers (and the core reason for such a restrictive GSL- and I would have done it the same exact way- except to get the GSL right from the beginning). Whether one likes 4E or not, the whole idea is to NOT support the 3PP market like they did before- thats a a feature, not a bug as far as WOTC is concerned. I am not directing this at anyone in particular- just a general comment- but I am amazed how many gamers feel they are ENTITLED to 3PP support via WOTC licensing out their game. Frankly I think things were FAR better when the market wasn't D20 centric. I much prefer the days when game rules were written specifically for a particular setting/genre and not the other way around. I sure as hell don't want to play Glorantha D20 or Traveller D20, or LOTR D20, or any other great setting castrated to fit D&D tropes. Yes it sucks Necro isn't able to utilize the GSL, but I'm actually enjoying the fact that there is not a plethora of crap 3PP product on the shelves anymore-Lord knows for every good Necro or Green Ronin product there was 20 or 30 other horrid ones. I think Gamers have (conveniently) forgotten about the serious amounts of crap and only care to remember the few and far between gems in order to further their personal "I want"' s. Let me address this a little. I didnt like all the 3PP support for 3.x either. Some of it was just awful. But since WotC is unwilling to publish adventures I am willing to buy, either because they dont see it as worth the production time or personal interest on the writer's part, why not allow someone willing to do it, the opportunity? I sure enjoyed the 1e modules, S-series, G-series, you name it....all good. But I just choke on everyting 3.x WotC turned out...cough, cough. NG however, turned out the stuff I really liked. So if WotC wont do it, then they shoud let NG do it. I think that was what the license was for. The open game concept was pretty cool IMO. Stepping back was a good business move....bad for pure gaming adventure goodness however. Imagine if SW Bell still had complete control over telecommunications. No cell phones. No OGL....no NG goodness. I know, not the best example, but you get my point. It all seems mute now anyway. Just sad that NG support of my favorite game is gone now. I love Paizo, but love site-based adventure more.
Philotomy Jurament		#56	[-]
Posts: 558 (06/19/09 08:37:40) Old School Cool Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Geleg wrote: I'm with TacoJohn,... Me, too. ...but I know that Clark doesn't feel the same way. Sigh. Well, Clark's opinion on OSRIC is well-known, but he's also said he thought Goodman's approach with their 1e modules was okay (i.e. OGL 1e compatible) -- that's what Black Blade is doing. So it isn't totally out of the question. Heck, a NG adventure done for Pathfinder would cover 3.x, and Black Blade could do a 1e version that would appeal to the portion of the market playing TSR-era D&D (including the retro-clone alphabet soup and C&C). I still hold out hope that Clark will turn away from the "current edition rules" will-o-wisp and come home to where "1e feel" really lives. We've got a robe, ring, and fatted calf waiting. Philotomy's OD&D Musings B4 Lost City Campaign
JeffB		#57	[-]
Posts: 415 (06/19/09 08:58:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Mithriltooth wrote: For the first time ever, 3E had me look into 3PPs for rpg material when I had always been a strict "Official Brand" user. The first non-official brand product I ever bought was from Necromancer Games when I saw the "First Edition Feel" logos. I bought CoF, ToA, and VoLK first iirc. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, what 3PP D&D materials did you have a choice to buy prior to 3E? None. Unless you count JG's very limited license 20 years prior and Wee Warriorsprior to that. It was no different under Gary- he wanted the creative control and brand name solely under his own control and realized the 3rd party (JG) was going off in ways he did not want. He's even stated that WOTC was nuts for doing the opposite, and would never have done something similar. I don't blame him, and I suspect EVERYONE else here would feel the same way were it their own product and company and came down to dollars in their pockets and feeding their own family and employees families. I mean if its not a big deal to control the IP, why didn't Clark just go gung-ho with the original GSL and do a Tome 4E, and convert all his 3.5 stuff? Obviously, he didn't because he wanted to control his own product and efforts. Its a double standard to say "I don't blame Clark" then rip WOTC apart for doing the very same thing. I think Gamers need to stop looking at this as a their little fun hobby and saying "whats in it for me" and realize what running a business-even a business based on a game of make believe- is all about. I'd LOVE for things to be back how they were in 1978 when I started playing D&D and the big boom of the RPG business thereafter, but those days are long gone. EDIT- now don't get me wrong, I don't bleed WOTC colors, or defend WOTC on a regular basis- they make plenty of decisions I do NOT like. But this an area I think where they totally get ragged on and it's unjustifiable. *Founding Father of O.A.F.- Old school Admirers of Fourth edition* "I feel books like "A Princess of Mars", "The Swords of Lankhmar" and "The Black Company" are far more important to your gaming experience than whether you choose between OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, or D&D4E." ..... TheRavyn *"D&D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules." Tim Kask, Foreword, Eldritch Wizardry 1976* Last Edited By: JeffB 06/19/09 09:06:30. Edited 1 times.
Mister Frau Blucher		#58	[-]
Posts: 537 (06/19/09 09:25:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	JeffB wrote: Mithriltooth wrote: For the first time ever, 3E had me look into 3PPs for rpg material when I had always been a strict "Official Brand" user. The first non-official brand product I ever bought was from Necromancer Games when I saw the "First Edition Feel" logos. I bought CoF, ToA, and VoLK first iirc. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, what 3PP D&D materials did you have a choice to buy prior to 3E? None. Unless you count JG's very limited license 20 years prior and Wee Warriorsprior to that. It was no different under Gary- he wanted the creative control and brand name solely under his own control and realized the 3rd party (JG) was going off in ways he did not want. He's even stated that WOTC was nuts for doing the opposite, and would never have done something similar. I don't blame him, and I suspect EVERYONE else here would feel the same way were it their own product and company and came down to dollars in their pockets and feeding their own family and employees families. I mean if its not a big deal to control the IP, why didn't Clark just go gung-ho with the original GSL and do a Tome 4E, and convert all his 3.5 stuff? Obviously, he didn't because he wanted to control his own product and efforts. Its a double standard to say "I don't blame Clark" then rip WOTC apart for doing the very same thing. I think Gamers need to stop looking at this as a their little fun hobby and saying "whats in it for me" and realize what running a business-even a business based on a game of make believe- is all about. I'd LOVE for things to be back how they were in 1978 when I started playing D&D and the big boom of the RPG business thereafter, but those days are long gone. EDIT- now don't get me wrong, I don't bleed WOTC colors, or defend WOTC on a regular basis- they make plenty of decisions I do NOT like. But this an area I think where they totally get ragged on and it's unjustifiable. Actually I remeber quite a few third party companies from the old days. In addition to JG - which produced a lot of material - there was Role Aids and The Companions, both of which produced some good stuff. The Armory made a few products, not just character sheets. There was a company - can't remember the name - that did Temple of Athena; not a great adventure, almost Monty Hall, like a couple of kobolds guarding a Manual of Puissant Skill at Arms. There was Arduin, which eventually became its own game but wasn't at first. I am sure I am forgetting others. Not nitpicking, or even disagreeing with your larger point (though I do not see the level of hate you do), just saying that there were many third party products at the time you must have missed. Not as many as the D20 glut, but quite a few nonetheless. Official Killer DM #0853 Programmed adventures for TFT/LAW: http://www.darkcitygames.com/ The Beggar's Street Bravos - you cannot stop us, you can only hope to contain us.
JeffB		#59	[-]
Posts: 416 (06/19/09 09:29:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	None of those were official D&D official products nor was there any license/terms of use- they were all "universal" products carefully written to imply some sort of compatability with AD&D while avoiding any legal issues- there is a HUGE difference between them and a SRD product which states "requires the use of the D&D players handbook" and is granting the publisher rights to utilize D&D IP/Material. *Founding Father of O.A.F.- Old school Admirers of Fourth edition* "I feel books like "A Princess of Mars", "The Swords of Lankhmar" and "The Black Company" are far more important to your gaming experience than whether you choose between OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, or D&D4E." ..... TheRavyn *"D&D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules." Tim Kask, Foreword, Eldritch Wizardry 1976*
Mister Frau Blucher		#60	[-]
Posts: 538 (06/19/09 09:36:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Moving the goal posts, eh? I understand the difference between officially licsensed and not. I should have realized that is what you were asking about, rather than just responding to your query about other third party publishers at the time. Carry on. Official Killer DM #0853 Programmed adventures for TFT/LAW: http://www.darkcitygames.com/ The Beggar's Street Bravos - you cannot stop us, you can only hope to contain us.

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Necro Update -- 4E print not looking good, but still possible

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