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Dark Mistress		#21	[-]
Posts: 1841 (05/11/09 19:06:30) Dominatrix Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yeah but I planned to offer real feedback from my limited time of playing 4e, so was going to give it. Moot point now. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin For MSG - I am sure you can teach a monkey to scratch his butt, just tell him to watch you. After a couple of hours he should be a master at it.
balrog62	Answers may vary	#22	[-]
Posts: 254 (05/11/09 19:28:24) Ghast Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Treebore wrote: balrog62 wrote: I wonder how many times you can take the survey.... From the same computer? Once. Really? I just tried it, from my laptop again....and I got to take it again. Like many of you, I was hoping for a larger box to give more information. Well, this gave me a second try at giving them more info, but now I'm not so sure they really care what the results are as long as a majority of respondents are playing 4e and thus "it is sucessful". I dunno....
Treebore		#23	[-]
Posts: 7952 (05/12/09 00:45:07) Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	balrog62 wrote: Treebore wrote: balrog62 wrote: I wonder how many times you can take the survey.... From the same computer? Once. Really? I just tried it, from my laptop again....and I got to take it again. Like many of you, I was hoping for a larger box to give more information. Well, this gave me a second try at giving them more info, but now I'm not so sure they really care what the results are as long as a majority of respondents are playing 4e and thus "it is sucessful". I dunno.... Was it from your home both times? I was only able to take it once, from any of the 4 computers I have hooked up to the internet here in my house. So I would think it is determined by your router address. If you were wandering on a wireless network that may be why you were able to do it, where I could not. As for 4E "success", in the court records filed to sue the "pirates" of their PHB2 they revealed that the ENTIRE set of the core books had sold, at their 10 month mark "hundreds of thousands of copies". Google articles from around December of 2001, you will read where the PH of 3E, by itself, sold more than all of 4E Core has sold in a 10 month period. According to Ryan Dancey, though a controversial figure, claims that the 3E PH sold 300,000 copies in the first 30 days. I don't know how accurate his claim really is, but I do know that WOTC, as a company, claimed that it sold over a million copies by years end. So Ryan wasn't too far off, even if he was innacurate.
Snoring Rock		#24	[-]
Posts: 1032 (05/12/09 03:00:40) Eternally Unspanked Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I know this is anecdotal but......if it was so wildly successful (4e) then why have this survey? I am sure WotC picked up some new players, but those players, I think, have short attention spans. They will move on if they havent already. I doubt PH2 was even close to what I would difine as a success...pirates or not. They lost the biggest part of the older gamers with the GSL shennegans and straying so far from what the core game was. Like it or not....it is NOT the same game.....4e is not what most define as D&D. It just isnt. Not right or wrong, just a fact. If they came out with say 4.5 like they did with 3.5, they would sell few if any books at all. I for one am tired of the entire thing. I think most of us are. 4e as a marketing stunt...failure. As a game to carry the torch for D&D...failure. I am not sure how success is defined by WotC because the whole excitement of the game is gone. It just isnt there. Maybe this is the lifecycle the game runs. I mean, gee the glut of books and splats and extra rules.....but I for one was not ready for an overhaul. I think a lot of silent folks out there agree. For every one of us who get on these forums and speak our mind, I expect there are 100 others who dont voice an opinion but with their wallet. That speaks loudest of all....
DaveMage		#25	[-]
Posts: 2236 (05/12/09 04:10:45) Wilderlands Pathfinder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	4E is probably not wildly successful, but it does appear to be successful enough. shrug Besides, the President of WotC said it was doing very well....
TheRavyn		#26	[-]
Posts: 2092 (05/12/09 05:48:00) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I have to say I'm surprised to see so much sour grapes still after 4E has been out a year now, does anyone expect WotC to backtrack and go back to producing 3.5-ish stuff? IMO, not a realistic expectation, so curious why anyone would take the time to fill out a WotC Dungeon Mastering survey with complaints about 4E (not being snarky here, I really am curious!). If given a choice would you rather see: 1) Paizo/Pathfinder RPG continue on as the official home of 3.5-ish D&D, or 2) WotC go back to producing 3.5 stuff again. Beyond the Black Gate - Yer Old-School Gaming Blog O.A.F. - Kickin' wimps outta the Treehouse since 2008! My other car is a Flail Snail.
balrog62		#27	[-]
Posts: 255 (05/12/09 05:50:07) Ghast Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Treebore wrote: balrog62 wrote: Treebore wrote: balrog62 wrote: I wonder how many times you can take the survey.... From the same computer? Once. Really? I just tried it, from my laptop again....and I got to take it again. Like many of you, I was hoping for a larger box to give more information. Well, this gave me a second try at giving them more info, but now I'm not so sure they really care what the results are as long as a majority of respondents are playing 4e and thus "it is sucessful". I dunno.... Was it from your home both times? I was only able to take it once, from any of the 4 computers I have hooked up to the internet here in my house. So I would think it is determined by your router address. If you were wandering on a wireless network that may be why you were able to do it, where I could not. Hmmm, that could be it. I also notice that sbcglobal (or whatever they're called now) cycles through IP addresses every few days for home networks. There could have been a cycle between the morning and the evening when I tried it. Doesn't matter really because in both cases I basically told them the same thing; I don't play 4e, tried it and didn't like it, and I don't use or allow computers at my table when I'm DMing. To me, the survey doesn't appear to be about figuring out what works and what doesn't, it's more about validation of their (WotC's) original premise - older players won't switch to try new things and younger players are switching/joining the new 4e game. Granted it's successful in that it's bringing in new people to play the game. I wish them luck but I'll stick with what I've got.
DaveMage		#28	[-]
Posts: 2237 (05/12/09 06:08:11) Wilderlands Pathfinder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	TheRavyn wrote: I have to say I'm surprised to see so much sour grapes still after 4E has been out a year now, does anyone expect WotC to backtrack and go back to producing 3.5-ish stuff? IMO, not a realistic expectation, so curious why anyone would take the time to fill out a WotC Dungeon Mastering survey with complaints about 4E (not being snarky here, I really am curious!). If given a choice would you rather see: 1) Paizo/Pathfinder RPG continue on as the official home of 3.5-ish D&D, or 2) WotC go back to producing 3.5 stuff again. 3) Have WotC sell the D&D brand to Paizo, so they can use the D&D IP. But, of your choices, #1 seems the best. As for sour grapes, the 4E decision is indeed water under the bridge. The problem is that the D&D community (including this community) is still split. (And yes, it was somewhat split at the end of 3.x anyway, but the split has increased since 4E's release.) I liked it more when we were all (mostly) playing the same game.
DrWaites		#29	[-]
Posts: 1996 (05/12/09 07:23:32) Necromancer Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Looks like they pulled the survey before I got a chance to respond.
Sen the Collector		#30	[-]
Posts: 3087 (05/12/09 07:59:08) Dark Walker of the Planes Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ravyn, unfortunately the DnD branch of Wotc has continued to do things to aggravate many DnD gamers since 4E has been released. The most recent and spectacular blunder has been their withdrawal of pdf sales. Aside from being a dumb move, it also has an impact on those of us who are playing older versions of DnD, since the pdfs gave us easy, legitimate and affordable access to out of print books. Also, emotions are not rational. If I were to tell you my favorite band and you were to then respond by going on at length about how much my favorite band sucks, it would not amuse me since I have an emotional attachment to the band. Back when Wotc was rather clumsily trying to promote 4E they posted repeatedly about how much 3.5 sucked at this and that, as well as dumping on older versions of the game. For those of us who love 3.5 or 1E or 2E, those comments really rankled, and will not be easily forgotten and forgiven. At least for me, the ill will created from those comments still persists. As for your two options, I would ideally like for both to happen. Or go with the "other" option DaveMage suggested and have Paizo get the rights to just call Pathfinder "DnD" and get rights to all of the IP. But if I had to choose between the two, I'd go with the Paizo and Pathfinder option. Quite frankly, although I really like the 3.5 ruleset, I didn't much care for Wotc's business philosophy back in the 3.5 days either, and they only put out a handful of books that I really liked.
Snoring Rock		#31	[-]
Posts: 1033 (05/12/09 09:34:43) Eternally Unspanked Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	TheRavyn wrote: I have to say I'm surprised to see so much sour grapes still after 4E has been out a year now, does anyone expect WotC to backtrack and go back to producing 3.5-ish stuff? IMO, not a realistic expectation, so curious why anyone would take the time to fill out a WotC Dungeon Mastering survey with complaints about 4E (not being snarky here, I really am curious!). If given a choice would you rather see: 1) Paizo/Pathfinder RPG continue on as the official home of 3.5-ish D&D, or 2) WotC go back to producing 3.5 stuff again. Ravyn, I have read the entire thread here, I fail to see a demand for WotC to go back and do "3.5-ish" material. This use of 3.5-ish is in itself snarky. I dont see sour grapes either. Facts are facts, and 4e comes up short, you have said that yourself. As marketed and as managed and as a game, it missed the mark. Going back to fix it now is mute. I dont think anyone expects that. No one here asked for that. I certainly didnt. I dont care what WotC does. I have divorced myself from that company, and I am not alone on that. The survey however, may be a good place for lost customers to voice a few points of disatisfaction so that perhaps the next move, may not be as damaging to the company as the past few have been. Can they fix 4e? No. Should they try? No. Maybe 5e will have more thought put into it. Maybe they will do like Microsoft did and admit stupidity with Vista and remarket XP until the software really is working. IMO that wont work here. Actually, I like having the home of "3.5-ish" D&D with Paizo. That company has done an excellent job with the product and how they communicate with 3PP's and customers. Can we say the same for WotC? Is that somehow sour grapes?
davrion24		#32	[-]
Posts: 367 (05/12/09 09:45:00) Shadow Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think the hope would be to make sure our views are considered when the inevitable R&D begins for 5e. For 3.x material, I trust Paizo much more than WotC at this point. Like Orcus, I'd like to be able to support the current version of d&d. My group is still playing 4e as one of our campaign rotations, and I have to admit that I'm indifferent between playing 4e or having that week's session cancelled. TheRavyn wrote: I have to say I'm surprised to see so much sour grapes still after 4E has been out a year now, does anyone expect WotC to backtrack and go back to producing 3.5-ish stuff? IMO, not a realistic expectation, so curious why anyone would take the time to fill out a WotC Dungeon Mastering survey with complaints about 4E (not being snarky here, I really am curious!). If given a choice would you rather see: 1) Paizo/Pathfinder RPG continue on as the official home of 3.5-ish D&D, or 2) WotC go back to producing 3.5 stuff again.
Treebore		#33	[-]
Posts: 7953 (05/12/09 11:14:10) Scribe of the Unending Word Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I like how every time people try to say why they don't like 4E, or simply that they don't like 4E, people come along and try and discount them by calling their feelings and opinions "sour grapes", "edition bashing", and the like. Try this on for size, people really, truly, genuinely dislike 4E, period. Its not edition bashing or sour grapes, its fact.
RJM		#34	[-]
Posts: 31 (05/12/09 12:41:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'd go with #1 of course. Because honestly aside from disliking 4e, I really just have a growing hate for BotC themselves and it would take much more than them changing back to the system to convince me to ever return as a customer.
TheRavyn		#35	[-]
Posts: 2099 (05/12/09 13:04:34) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Treebore wrote: I like how every time people try to say why they don't like 4E, or simply that they don't like 4E, people come along and try and discount them by calling their feelings and opinions "sour grapes", "edition bashing", and the like. Try this on for size, people really, truly, genuinely dislike 4E, period. Its not edition bashing or sour grapes, its fact. Please don't imply I was discounting anyone's opinion Treebore, I asked an honest question, and haven't argued against anyone's response. Personally, I don't think its sour grapes to say you don't like 4E, I think its sour grapes to take every opportunity to say you don't like 4E. For instance, I'll take any opportunity to express my dislike for 2E. Sour Grapes? Definitely! Edition Bashing? Yep, proud of it. Far from discounting anyone's opinion, I was inquiring as to why anyone would bother expressing that opinion to WotC, who are obviously firmly committed to 4E. As Snore and Dav mentioned, they are expressing their dislike in the hopes that an eventual 5E will be more traditional D&D, which is the kind of thing I was looking for, and I'm glad they took the time to respond in a thoughtful manner. Beyond the Black Gate - Yer Old-School Gaming Blog O.A.F. - Kickin' wimps outta the Treehouse since 2008! My other car is a Flail Snail.
Snoring Rock		#36	[-]
Posts: 1035 (05/12/09 13:33:09) Eternally Unspanked Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ravyn, I like your new avatar. Not that I like it, but it disturbs me.....so I like it.
Sen the Collector		#37	[-]
Posts: 3090 (05/12/09 13:40:17) Dark Walker of the Planes Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Geez, Ravyn, I still like 2E. Why must you be such a hater? (I still don't entirely "get" all of the 2E hate).
TheRavyn		#38	[-]
Posts: 2102 (05/12/09 13:42:12) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Snoring Rock wrote: Ravyn, I like your new avatar. Not that I like it, but it disturbs me.....so I like it. Gotta love Lorre! If you think that one's creepy... Beyond the Black Gate - Yer Old-School Gaming Blog O.A.F. - Kickin' wimps outta the Treehouse since 2008! My other car is a Flail Snail.
TheRavyn		#39	[-]
Posts: 2103 (05/12/09 13:45:35) Vampire Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Sen the Collector wrote: Geez, Ravyn, I still like 2E. Why must you be such a hater? Why must you constantly discount my feelings by calling me a hater!? (just dont call me a Baatezu). Beyond the Black Gate - Yer Old-School Gaming Blog O.A.F. - Kickin' wimps outta the Treehouse since 2008! My other car is a Flail Snail.
Sen the Collector		#40	[-]
Posts: 3093 (05/12/09 13:59:35) Dark Walker of the Planes Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	No 'prob, I figured you were more of a yugoloth anyway. (I never really cared for the renaming of demons, etc. either, but I thought -- and still think -- that "baatezu" and tanar'ri" sound alien enough to be ok. But "yugoloth" instead of "daemon"??? )

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