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Posts: 1
(03/03/09 08:54:08)
Orcus wrote: Some possible sources of the DISCONNECT 6. Higher power of 1st level. Many old schoolers want the low level fragile start to a campaign. 7. Its all about the grid. I think this is a big issue. I think we need to free ourselves of the constraints of the grid. 8. D&D isnt checkers. Too many powers involve teleporting and swaping squares on the grid and pulling and sliding and pushing and moving and hopping. Boing! That said, increasing movement in combat is a good thing. But 4E got out of hand. 9. Multiclassing. People love their fighter/mages and their fighter/thieves, etc. 3E did a good job with this, but it got crazy with people exploiting mutliple classes. I'm not sure 4E solved that problem. It went in the other direction. I think we need a multiclass solution.
Orcus wrote: Some POSSIBLE issues that I think are good for the game, but take some getting used to: 1. Healing surges. I like these and I like the idea of short and extended rests. 2. Saves are all 10s? Really? Yeah, it works. But it sure feels funny. 3. Redoing alignment seems funny. Generally, I like the idea of "unaligned" but I think they went too far in taking out auras and detectable alignments.
Posts: 2302
(03/03/09 10:16:37)
Necromancer
JRRNeiklot wrote: leadjunkie wrote: I didn't like the idea of healing surges either, but I am warming to them. Surges and the fatigue idea are just two different mechanisms to accomplish the same thing. The former just doesn't explicitly divide points in to two pools. I want to retain classic/old school elements as much as the next person, but I have no problem doing away with what sucked about old school. I don't want to go back to the days where healing required spiking the door shut to a room and counting down water and rations while you healed or trundling back in to town every time you were worse for the wear. How does that make the game better? How does it hurt it? It takes 5 seconds in real time and keeps the feeling that your characters are exploring a real world.
leadjunkie wrote: I didn't like the idea of healing surges either, but I am warming to them. Surges and the fatigue idea are just two different mechanisms to accomplish the same thing. The former just doesn't explicitly divide points in to two pools. I want to retain classic/old school elements as much as the next person, but I have no problem doing away with what sucked about old school. I don't want to go back to the days where healing required spiking the door shut to a room and counting down water and rations while you healed or trundling back in to town every time you were worse for the wear. How does that make the game better?
I didn't like the idea of healing surges either, but I am warming to them. Surges and the fatigue idea are just two different mechanisms to accomplish the same thing. The former just doesn't explicitly divide points in to two pools. I want to retain classic/old school elements as much as the next person, but I have no problem doing away with what sucked about old school. I don't want to go back to the days where healing required spiking the door shut to a room and counting down water and rations while you healed or trundling back in to town every time you were worse for the wear. How does that make the game better?
Posts: 184
(03/03/09 11:46:25)
Ghast
(03/03/09 12:08:39)
Posts: 19
(03/03/09 12:12:04)
Ryan Henry wrote: My disconnect is predominantly in the length of time combat encounters take. When kobolds have 30-ish hit points, you know the combat is going to take a while. So I would like to see a drop in HP across the board, increase the amount of damage that can be done per attack, and I think you'll be on to something mechanically speaking. I would like to see a lot more classic monsters and a lot of rituals (that are less resource intensive). I would welcome a classic campaign setting that divorces Tieflings and Dragonborn from the setting - but that's more fluff than mechanics. Currently, my group is playing Pathfinder. I don't know anyone in real life who is playing 4E. We tried it for a few sessions and dropped it. I'd like to see someone get it "right." Ryan
(03/03/09 12:15:16)
Orcus wrote: What the problem ISN'T: 1. The core mechanic. I think this is streamlined and great. 2. The skill system. This is a great advancement, in my view. 3. The combat rules. Again, generally a nice, clean system that keeps with the tradition of the game.
Some possible sources of the DISCONNECT 1. Races. The addition of dragonborn and tiefling. This smacks you in the face right away that this isnt classic D&D. The change of elves to elves and eladrin. 2. The art. Is every picture of a dragonborn for goodness sake? This sure didnt help make us old timers feel we were playing D&D.
3. The classes. This, to me, is the biggest one. Abandoning the original classes, not including all the key classes in the first PHB, and giving so many and an equal number of powers to all classes--essentially making a fighter like a wizard and a wizard like a fighter. This was a huge change and it is what does the most damage to the feeling that you are still playing D&D, in my view.
4. Anti-buffing. D&D has always been about buff spells and things like that. Their absence just feels funny. Not sure how big of a deal it is. I do like 4E's focus on the character supplying the fun, not the buff.
5. Many classic magic items have gone away or been re-concepted. 6. Higher power of 1st level. Many old schoolers want the low level fragile start to a campaign. 7. Its all about the grid. I think this is a big issue. I think we need to free ourselves of the constraints of the grid. 8. D&D isnt checkers. Too many powers involve teleporting and swaping squares on the grid and pulling and sliding and pushing and moving and hopping. Boing! That said, increasing movement in combat is a good thing. But 4E got out of hand.
9. Multiclassing. People love their fighter/mages and their fighter/thieves, etc. 3E did a good job with this, but it got crazy with people exploiting mutliple classes. I'm not sure 4E solved that problem. It went in the other direction. I think we need a multiclass solution.
Some POSSIBLE issues that I think are good for the game, but take some getting used to: 1. Healing surges. I like these and I like the idea of short and extended rests. 2. Saves are all 10s? Really? Yeah, it works. But it sure feels funny. 4. Tiering into heroic, paragon and epic. I think that is a great way to look at things and help re-structure where certain powers come in. Generally, you just dont go past paragon play.
3. Redoing alignment seems funny. Generally, I like the idea of "unaligned" but I think they went too far in taking out auras and detectable alignments.
Posts: 5165
(03/03/09 12:17:44)
Demon Lord
leadjunkie wrote: This brings up another point that I will segway into. It seems to me that random encounters have been de-emphasized with each new iteration of D&D. In latter editions I believe this is due to the prevailing belief that encounters must be balanced and just the right number of encounters need to be constructed to achieve the proper leveling progression. Nonsense! What happened to "Run away and live to fight another day" (or at least run faster than the dwarf )? I play a Wilderlands campaign where travel is fraught with peril. Travel in numbers or with stealth otherwise you may be lunch. Granted there is a concern that too many successful random encounters may cause a party to level en-route from adventure A to adventure B, but a good Judge should be able to make adjustment in the destination adventure to account for the leveled up party. A good hex crawl, filled with random encounters can be a successful campaign unto itself. I've played in such a game. The story grew organically out of the encounters.
Posts: 5166
(03/03/09 12:19:09)
Posts: 2
(03/03/09 12:22:41)
Posts: 21
(03/03/09 14:10:13)
Irda Ranger wrote: Further, I want the "Expedition to the Unknown" feel back. I want rules for running out of food and starvation. I want Purify Water to be a useful spell. I want entries in the PHB for Heroic, Paragon and Epic retinues. Maybe that the low-Heroic Tier that means a couple torch-bearers, a red-shirt or two and a mule. Maybe at Epic Tier that means a crack crew of Astral mercenaries for your Spelljammer. But either way it's clear that you're a leader among men like Odyssus, not a lone team of agents like Hannibal and B.A. Barracus. One of the things that keeps 4E from being an exploration game is the length of the combats. While (IME) they are shorter than 3.x, they are way too long. You only get a few a night. While you're going to have a number of empty rooms and other kinds of encounters, if your game time is restricted to only 2-3 combats tops you're just not going to get a sense of having plumbed those depths. And you can see this in Adventure design. While I see this in many of the 3.x maps as well, they are short and linear. You can't get a sense of exploration if you only go straight from one room to another with no real choices on the map (yes, love the Dragonsfoot/Knights and Knaves emphasis on the importance of a good map). So again, I'm going to pimp Ravyn's "Brutal 4e" house rule (half monster hps, increase monster damage, increase crits) as a means of both shortening encounters as well as 'bringing the danger back'. With you on Purify Water. And while they have Remove Affliction (Remove Curse and Dispel bad Magic all wrapped in one) as a ritual, I've never seen anyone use it (well, I've played between 20-30 sessions of 4e so there is a lot I haven't seen). In fact I've never seen anyone use the rituals, when dammit, they're a lot of the magic we miss from the game. Short Rests: you take one, you get a chance for a random encounter
Further, I want the "Expedition to the Unknown" feel back. I want rules for running out of food and starvation. I want Purify Water to be a useful spell. I want entries in the PHB for Heroic, Paragon and Epic retinues. Maybe that the low-Heroic Tier that means a couple torch-bearers, a red-shirt or two and a mule. Maybe at Epic Tier that means a crack crew of Astral mercenaries for your Spelljammer. But either way it's clear that you're a leader among men like Odyssus, not a lone team of agents like Hannibal and B.A. Barracus.
Posts: 1923
(03/03/09 14:41:07)
Vampire
redbeard wrote: Here is Ravyn's post about his "Brutal 4e" house rules. short form: Half monster hit points, increase monster damage. I should ask if they tried to just half character hit points as well instead of fiddling with monster damage (seems simpler to me, but haven't thought how that scales).
Posts: 535
(03/03/09 14:43:09)
Old School Cool
Posts: 1924
(03/03/09 14:54:02)
Orcus wrote: leadjunkie wrote: This brings up another point that I will segway into. It seems to me that random encounters have been de-emphasized with each new iteration of D&D. In latter editions I believe this is due to the prevailing belief that encounters must be balanced and just the right number of encounters need to be constructed to achieve the proper leveling progression. Nonsense! What happened to "Run away and live to fight another day" (or at least run faster than the dwarf )? I play a Wilderlands campaign where travel is fraught with peril. Travel in numbers or with stealth otherwise you may be lunch. Granted there is a concern that too many successful random encounters may cause a party to level en-route from adventure A to adventure B, but a good Judge should be able to make adjustment in the destination adventure to account for the leveled up party. A good hex crawl, filled with random encounters can be a successful campaign unto itself. I've played in such a game. The story grew organically out of the encounters. This is an excellent point and in part it has to do with the increased professionalism of adventure design. Gone are the "dungeon modules" of old like Rappan Athuk where you used it and went in and out as you saw fit. Or like Tomb of Abysthor. Now, a dungeon always has a "story" to it. And stories have set things that have to happen and more scheduled encounters. And you need to make sure specific advancement happens. That has led to smaller more focused dungeons and much much less just "exploring." Its sort of the "Adventure Path Effect" if you will. Now that said, there is still room for some random encounters. Its just not the same. I want to chew on this and think about it. But you really make an interesting observation.
Posts: 537
(03/03/09 15:45:18)
TheRavyn wrote: This has been a challenging design issue with my MegaDungeon project, as random encounters are definitely an important part of the Megadungeon (and old-school in general) feel, and yet can skew the numbers in the carefully plotted xp progressions of 4E adventure design.
TheRavyn wrote: One solution I found was to make a certain percentage of the encounters I prepared for a given level random - simply disconnecting them from their room and setting them free to wander.
TheRavyn wrote: This also freed up some space for what I consider a lost old-school component of dungeon design: empty rooms, puzzles, and mysterious objects/statues, etc. A normal "planned" adventure for 4E will consist of 10 encounters to level up a party. Lets say 7 combat areas, two traps, and a skill challenge. For my megadungeon, I would instead plot out the 2 traps, a fixed skill challenge, a "wandering" skill challenge (such as an unaligned but powerful NPC, for instance), 6 combat areas, and 4 random encounters. Now I've got 14 encounters, but I'm going to make the random ones half xp (4E combat is assumed to take terrain and other artifacts into consideration, so this is justifiable), and assign variable xp to my wandering skill challenge, depending on the outcome. Another option is to be creative with low-level or low-xp creatures for your random encounters. A rat swarm isn't worth much in xp, but it sure is scary to a party that's gone through all its surges and are trying to get two unconcious PCs out of the dungeon fast.
Posts: 16
(03/03/09 17:26:55)
Posts: 6
(03/03/09 18:01:24)
Posts: 3
(03/03/09 18:45:23)
Philotomy Jurament wrote: World Scale Not Dependent on PCs - I don't know how much of this is built into 4e or not, but I've seen discussions where the benefits of a moving scale are extolled. For example, if the PCs are first level, the town guard is scaled to provide an appropriate challenge for them, and if they're 10th level, the town guard is still scaled to provide an appropriate challenge for them. This is not old school, and completely undermines any sense of real progress or gains. The campaign should have a level scale that is independent of the PCs. As they grow in fortune, glory, and power, they'll see the real effects of their advancement displayed against the backdrop of the campaign world.
Posts: 2136
(03/03/09 19:08:59)
Wilderlands Pathfinder
Posts: 4
(03/03/09 19:53:33)
DaveMage wrote: Welcome to the Necromancer Games forums, Irda Ranger.
Posts: 538
(03/04/09 02:38:55)
Irda Ranger wrote: Accept that PCs who are high level are immune to monsters of sufficiently low level. Not just have more HP and do more Damage, but can't even be touched. (The Old School Way)
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