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TheRavyn wrote:

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Ifuritasfan wrote:

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honestly, I get the same feeling about 4th edition that I feel when I see the new "Speed Racer" movie trailers. That it's utterly soulless, neon colored, cotton candy flavored, pop culture kowtowing, anime inspired, vapid trash. Not the dungeon crawling neo-gothic romp that we all remember D&D being and as such isn't REAL D&D.

My suggestion is that if necro is truly interested in 1st edition feel with modern appeal, then you need to gut the fish, discard the garbage, and mod the rules set so how the game is "played" returns to the true feel of D&D again.

Don't think that every player should be able to "heal" ? Gut that rule and once more consolidate it to the classes that have historically been the healers.
Don't think that the fighter should have special powers on top of his already superior combat prowess? Fantastic, gut it, and keep the fighter as the mortal coil fixated member of the party that leads boldly, but with caution all the same.

Seriously, About the only way I'd even consider 4th edition at this point is if you guys tore into it, ripped out the "gee whiz" garbage, and made it back into the game we all love.

As long as people keep saying stuff like "soulless" and "not D&D" I'm gonna keep on saying "try actually playing it". I think that if our tastes were radically different we would not both have gravitated to an old-school company. So please try the game before condemning how it plays, because you're drawing assumptions and posting opinions on them that may drive away potential newcomers to the game, these boards, and this 3PP.

As for your idea of a "deconstructed" 4E, I think its a great idea! Seriously, you don't need to insult 4E to suggest such a thing. Even as a 4E fan, I'm also a fan of stripped down games (see: Microlite20!). Positive suggestions like this are incredibly more constructive than "4E took my lollipop" rants.

Ravyn, as long as I keep hearing people saying "play it first" in regards to 4th edition, when I've been studiously keeping up with what 4th edition is offering for months...what I keep thinking of is those people trying to serve me a $hit sandwich with a zombie like grin on their face while saying "How do you know you won't like it? Taste it first".

Look. I can, by studying what the sandwich is made of, what it smells like, the attitude of the people producing it, the prior products of the people producing it, and what it's constituent components are, decide for myself whether or not it's something that looks even vaguely consumable. And no... I don't need to "take a bite" to decide that a %%%+ sandwich is a %%%+ sandwich. And just to be clear on this, all the cheerleading in the world isn't going to change what it is.

WotC can try spin it all it likes and tell me that it's raining, but the facts seem to indicate that it's just them pissing, and I'm smart enough to know it.. (a homage to the old "Don't piss on me and try to tell me that it's raining" colloquialism)

I've been reading the press releases and rules leaks that have been coming out on Enworld and keeping my yap shut for months after deciding I'd take a fresh look at it and let some more info leak out before I'd make up my mind or say anything more on the subject. I've been following the updates and podcasts religiously, and some 4 months later, everything I've heard makes me more and more unhappy with what 4th edition is shaping up to be.

Also, one of the biggest arguments in favor of 4th edition is the whole "We gotta bringz in newbs or da game'll dieZ off". They use the need to get new gamers as an arguement that D&D must change itself to attract new players. Thus is a fallacy in my opinion. The game itself is fine. What it needs to be done is that D&Ds maketing need to change. Or should I say, it's LACK of proper marketing. D&D's image and how it is marketed is the issue.

For the most part, D&D's marketing and product releases have been focused (for the last 15 years) on simply putting out new covers and increasing rule density for consumption by the existing user base. This basically is them canibalizing the existing market base, and not growing new markets.

What brought you to the game originally? Was it aD&D with it's rules intense books? Or did it suck you in with a stripped down version that was more fun? For me it was the red box, then the blue box.

Look at some of the other games out there... Settlers for example, starts off with a simple boxed version, and then it lets you build on it. But does D&D have a widely available gateway version of the game? No. Sure there are some basic boxed sets out there, but they're not attractive to younger kids, nor are they as widespread as they need to be.